[STHX]

And I just love how you managed to summarize my point in 3 lines. And it is good to know I'm not the only who has still hopes for this project.

But I'm not really keen on the part "Chimpo turned the mess into a nicely ordered databank that is open for debate". Indeed there is more order now, but there have never been a debate. We were leaved to ourselves since the first day, each one of us posting something different than the other. But this is not a debate, this is a mess. And looking at the past forums, this has turned worse than the others. Its true, it was a mess before Chimpo, but we actually managed to get some actual work completed (a good example would be the old Sonic 4 forum: when we moved it here, we already had an almost complete Sonic sheet and 2 full tiled zones. Yeah, maybe they weren't great, but it is more than what we have now).
The problem is, again, that Chimpo got bored after the first week. Only time he posted was to insult someone or to totally scrap a post. But this is not what a leader must do.
Chimpo got it right, but being a dictator means giving orders every day. Also, but this is a personal view, Chimpo's attitude isn't the one of a dictator, but just the one of a dick.
But now it is too late, because most of the contributors leaved the project. And just changing attitude or leaders won't change this truth.


I'm going to tell you all the truth. Since I believe me and test-object aren't the only one who still believe in the project, I think there is a way to save it, but not everyone may be happy with it.

[Tweaker]

Save the drama for your mama, kids. If you want to make the project progress without Chimpo's help, then do it; otherwise, stop whining every time there's a period of silence. The best way to move this project forward is through work, not words—do that and you'll find there will be significantly less to complain about.

That said, there will be no further discussion questioning the leadership of this project. Make contributions or kindly refrain from posting, please. Thanks!

[Ayla]

I know I'm not a contributor. I just look on from the outside since I'm, honestly, working on a competing project. Here's my thoughts, though.

You can't accomplish anything no matter how many people you have if you don't have organization and direction. Instead of pointing fingers, pick up the ball and start being the change and progress you want to see in your project.

[Jan Abaza]

Quote

Save the drama for your mama, kids. If you want to make the project progress without Chimpo's help, then do it; otherwise, stop whining every time there's a period of silence. The best way to move this project forward is through work, not words—do that and you'll find there will be significantly less to complain about.

Sage words once again, but you know, it's really hard doing any work if you think said work has a very low chance of actually getting used.

Besides, the leadership gets all the glory and credit, but is responsible for the periods of silence. Having to deal with criticism is taking that responsibility. The staff is supposed to be making Sonic 4, the crowd is supposed to be expecting stuff. It's how it works. Pretending none of the suspense is there (by being obliged to only posting Work and no Words) doesn't do it good, rather it just frustrates the staff in the long run.

Quote

That said, there will be no further discussion questioning the leadership of this project. Make contributions or kindly refrain from posting, please.

...just my two scents; please don't suspend/ban me. ;_;

This post has been edited by Jan Abaza: 02 May 2009 - 04:09 AM

[test-object]

Tweaker, on May 2 2009, 03:53 AM, said:

Save the drama for your mama, kids. If you want to make the project progress without Chimpo's help, then do it;

That's the point, we don't want a game without Chimpo, we want a game WITH Chimpo contributing. The problem is he's not saying which direction he's invisioning. I'd gladly work on "Chimpo's Sonic Game" if Chimpo actually says what we need to do.

[Stealth]

So that's it, then? Everyone's just gonna sit here pretending that a single person not sitting here every single day responding to every individual post prevents the rest of the "community" from contributing solid content to a "community project", putting it into context by actually attempting to prototype working models, and discussing them amongst themselves?

That's cool.. it's not like we have generalities in place, established technical guidelines, a working and documented game engine, a way to contact the developer of said engine, 811 standard Members, 231 "Oldbies", 63 Tech Members, and some people with enough time to sit around and write humongous posts about how this is all Chimpo's fault and follow-up sarcastically to the admin's response, or anything.

[Jan Abaza]

Uh, maybe people would like to see an established general project target (beyond the "just this one level goddamit!"), general uniform art concept, a solid say on stage mechanics, some sort of statement regarding plot elements etc. as well? Maybe posted all up in a happy pinned topic or something?

Because it's kind of hard to get inspired enough over random pastel artwork and selected pieces of outdoor scenery.

This post has been edited by Jan Abaza: 02 May 2009 - 06:42 AM

[Stealth]

Jan Abaza, on May 2 2009, 04:33 AM, said:

Uh, maybe people would like to see an established general project target (beyond the "just this one level goddamit!")

What's wrong with starting with one level?

Jan Abaza, on May 2 2009, 04:33 AM, said:

general uniform art concept,

That phrase has no explicit meaning. I can't imagine what blanket statements anyone can make at this point that make it any more possible to design art for the game

Jan Abaza, on May 2 2009, 04:33 AM, said:

a solid say on stage mechanics,

The concepts in the first few posts in this thread, maybe?
http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?sho...=14280&st=0

Jan Abaza, on May 2 2009, 04:33 AM, said:

some sort of statement regarding plot elements etc. as well?

How does work on the first level hinge entirely on the plot, which actually has been discussed before the forum was trimmed, anyway?

Jan Abaza, on May 2 2009, 04:33 AM, said:

Because it's kind of hard to get inspired enough over random pastel artwork

Those were attempts to design the level. Anyone who has a problem with them should make their own

Jan Abaza, on May 2 2009, 04:33 AM, said:

and selected pieces of outdoor scenery.

So I only imagined that Japanese Sonic 2 guide I have somewhere around here with pictures of locations that members of Sonic Team visited to get inspiration for their levels?

Seriously, this is ridiculous. Unless there are people at work in secrecy, which is something I completely understand, I don't see why there's no attempt to expand the scenery, most of the badnik concepts still have no sprite attempts, no large-scale attempts at full level layout have been made, and noone has made an attempt to implement any of the assets we DO have with E02. It's not exactly easy to make decisions about things that don't even exist, so I really don't see how there is any basis for these complaints

[Jan Abaza]

Quote

What's wrong with starting with one level?

Nothing's wrong with starting with one level. Problem stems from reducing your whole concept to one level.

Quote

The concepts in the first few posts in this thread, maybe?
http://forums.sonicr...o...=14280&st=0

Cool. You're right, this does suffice, people are lazy and I'm totally stupid.

Quote

How does work on the first level hinge entirely on the plot, which actually has been discussed before the forum was trimmed, anyway?

What the hell? I'm not saying it does. But let's say I am. Plot relates to level order, level order relates to gimmicks. Gimmicks are stuff you shouldn't use in the first level if they appear in the later ones.

It's not terribly important to know beforehand what the great picture is, but it does help...since you're trying to inspire people here, not leave them alone with tools and watch work pile up. It won't happen by itself.

Quote

I can't imagine what blanket statements anyone can make at this point that make it any more possible to design art for the game.

Neither can I, but the man in charge posting an example of in-game graphics (level art) style and saying "THIS" wouldn't hurt. Yes, I know there's the sand and the trees, but that's one piece of one level, and personally I haven't got a clue in which direction I should be heading when attepting to 'expand' it. Detail, pattern, or cartoon? The whole game needs an uniform art style...so the first level is somewhat important, because its' style will define that of the whole game.

Quote

So I only imagined that Japanese Sonic 2 guide I have somewhere around here with pictures of locations that members of Sonic Team visited to get inspiration for their levels?

No, I believe you, I'm sure they actually visited places to get inspired, and not looked at photographs.

Quote

Seriously, this is ridiculous. Unless there are people at work in secrecy, which is something I completely understand, I don't see why there's no attempt to expand the scenery, most of the badnik concepts still have no sprite attempts, no large-scale attempts at full level layout have been made, and noone has made an attempt to implement any of the assets we DO have with E02. It's not exactly easy to make decisions about things that don't even exist, so I really don't see how there is any basis for these complaints.

Stealth, you're a really cool guy and I don't wanna argue with you in any case. I'm telling you why there's such slow input on this project, though - for something so close to one man's vision he isn't doing much to get people to work with him, and the tl:dr posts up there are the result.

(I think I've outstayed my welcome though, Tweaker's gonna have my head for further discussing leadership matters, and I've got a feeling you're gonna tear me and all my posts apart for not making any public E02 builds of ... that other S4. <_< )

[Stealth]

Jan Abaza, on May 2 2009, 06:28 AM, said:

Stealth, you're a really cool guy and I don't wanna argue with you in any case. I'm telling you why there's such slow input on this project, though - for something so close to one man's vision he isn't doing much to get people to work with him, and the tl:dr posts up there are the result.

It's not that I've got something against you, either. I just don't see the issue, here

Jan Abaza, on May 2 2009, 06:28 AM, said:

but the man in charge posting an example of in-game graphics (level art) style and saying "THIS" wouldn't hurt. Yes, I know there's the sand and the trees, but that's one piece of one level, and personally I haven't got a clue in which direction I should be heading when attepting to 'expand' it. Detail, pattern, or cartoon? The whole game needs an uniform art style...so the first level is somewhat important, because its' style will define that of the whole game.

But Chimpo set up and participated in the art discussion here:
http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?sho...=14279&st=0

It seems that by large, he stops participating in the discussion when it more-or-less degrades to piddly crap. There doesn't really seem to be anything too terribly significant in the way of progress since he's last had anything to say about it. I know he's argued about that, too, but how many times does he have to say "STOP BITCHING ABOUT ONE GODDAMNED PIXEL" before he just stops?

It certainly seems to me that we already have plenty to work with for a while, and it just leaves me wondering why we don't have an actual level demo in progress yet. He's already shown that he approves of the in-progress level art and the layout concepts, and he's expressed interest in a couple of the proposed enemies. Shouldn't we have like, graph-paper layout construction, and expansion of the graphics into a useable tileset? Someone could get to work on that, someone could sprite those enemies, some people could get to other things like attempting to implement the current Sonic sprite set over that concept demo I did..

If you only care enough to complain, you must not really care

Jan Abaza, on May 2 2009, 06:28 AM, said:

No, I believe you, I'm sure they actually visited places to get inspired, and not looked at photographs.

Well, it's not like any of us can actually DO that, is it? :P
You don't necessarily have to BE there to get the idea. Looking up pictures of scenery online is about the best we can ask for

Jan Abaza, on May 2 2009, 06:28 AM, said:

and I've got a feeling you're gonna tear me and all my posts apart for not making any public E02 builds of ... that other S4. <_< )

I'm... not sure what you're saying here at all :/

[Matwek]

I think it just simply boils down to the fact that people that can produce the work are more involved with their own projects.

[Adamis]

Or don't know what to do. I'd love to help a bit with my sketches but I don't even know how I can help, what you guys need and all. I don't know if my previous works (for the previous Sonic 4 project) are still valid or not, or if you'd still need me ...

This post has been edited by Adamis: 02 May 2009 - 10:45 AM

[Tweaker]

Jan Abaza, on May 2 2009, 09:28 AM, said:

(I think I've outstayed my welcome though, Tweaker's gonna have my head for further discussing leadership matters, and I've got a feeling you're gonna tear me and all my posts apart for not making any public E02 builds of ... that other S4. <_< )

I'll be honest with you—I really, really don't give a shit about this project anymore; in fact, I stopped around the time that everything was going in circles with no real progression while Chimpo was bashing his face in at how retarded people were being about overriding decisions that he made. I can't say with certainty that he's sick of this shit, too, but I know I am. And gigantic rebellious walls of text aren't exactly my favorite thing to get linked to, you see. ;P

So no, I'm not going to "have anyone's head," but I am rather tempted to lock this topic so people can focus on matters of contribution instead of matters of the psychological cock. Figuratively speaking, of course. =P

Matwek, on May 2 2009, 10:43 AM, said:

I think it just simply boils down to the fact that people that can produce the work are more involved with their own projects.

This is a good point as well. It's not like Chimpo hasn't said what needs to be worked on—there are several topics, past and present, which describe that—there just hasn't been... well, anything done. Maybe it's because people are busy, as you said, or maybe they're just dyslexic or otherwise uninterested. In any case, no push has been given for one reason or another.

The best thing to do in this situation is to, like, harass Chimpo by PM and get him to give the official word or something. Or maybe the official wall of insults. That's the risk you're taking, I guess. =P

[Jan Abaza]

Stealth, on May 2 2009, 09:09 AM, said:

It's not that I've got something against you, either. I just don't see the issue, here

Oh, okay.

Quote

Well, it's not like any of us can actually DO that, is it? :P
You don't necessarily have to BE there to get the idea. Looking up pictures of scenery online is about the best we can ask for

Well, yeah, but to make up for not being there, some analysis would also be good. That waterfall, for example - what makes it look like a waterfall and how to draw it to be in-style with the common art? I could go on posting walls of text and Gale examples, but I have my own style, which isn't close to this game's...so I can't really do that myself.

I can provide some pointers to make up a bit for clogging this topic, though:
- set up GraphicsGale, for all who yet haven't
- in the toolbar there is a 'grid' setting; make sure you have 8x8, 16x16, 32x32, 64x64, 128x128 and 256x256 available
- focus all your palette on a single line at a time, in case you're not doing that; your special friends are colors with RGB values at 48, 112, 192, 255 and the like - those kind of look the least pastel to me
...an example of drawing blocks, wish I'd have GraphicsGale on my Eee to supplement them with screens:
- select the snap-to-grid, and draw a single filled square rectangle on 64x64 grid with your favorite palette color
- define two more palette registers, setting one color to be 'darker' and another 'lighter'
- shade that block at 45° angle (always, always shade all blocks and all art from a single source; best is either way 45° degree angle, highlighted from right in 'pleasant' levels and from the left in 'unpleasant' ones); with the lighter color in the top right, and darker color in the bottom left, leaving a 32x32 area of original color inside the square, highlight and shade around it - where the highlights meet, draw a 45° line with the original color separating them
- whew, you've got your 64x64 block, now copy/paste it nearby, pick a new color from the palette and make it one step lighter than the 'lighter' that was used (if your lightest color is too bright anyway, you should go pick a color that is one step down from your 'darker' color and follow the same principle on the shaded part)
- recolor the block one step lighter (in this example) by applying color #4 over the highlighted part, brighter color replacing the original color, and original color going where the shade was
- you're halfway done; you must now think of a pattern, in this example just use the checkered hill Green Hill's famous for, but smaller; you must go down to 8x8 level, and draw up alternating pattern of transparent and any color you're not using within actual art...it could be anything you like, but in this case, draw alternating checkered squares of 4x4 because it's freaking easy to do, just fill a 8x8 tile with two alternating squares of a single color, then copy/paste copies around it until you have a 64x64 block
- now copy/paste your two precious blocks elsewhere (backup) and apply the checkered "net" over whichever you want
- on the now overcheckered block fill every square of that color you're not using with transparency (you can do this quickly by doing it on the important bits and copy/pasting them, but be careful)
- copy/paste the skeletonized block over his solid brother and there you go
- this looks ugly, but it's basics...for a better look, try applying a repeating pattern other than checkers over there; use circles, triangles, whatever, but try to stick with 8x8 or 16x16 limits, or it could screw you later on
- and for the love of God keep the pattern simple or it will be hard on the eyes when actually moving
- make a 256x256 block using the patterned block you've just made; use copy/paste to "stretch" and "resize" the blocks, but always stick to the grid, or it won't look Sonicy

[BadCopNoDonut]

Part of the reason I haven't done more work on art is the one level at a time thing. Its a good idea in theory...I just have a certain art style, and this first level isn't quite it, so I don't have much to bring to the table for it, unlike how I might for later levels. And I hesitate to do more with them because this project seems to be stuck and going nowhere. It could be possible I'd be making the art all for nothing. Although the stuff I made previously, I'm rather proud of and if this project dies I may well take it and use it in a hack of my own or allow someone else to use it if I don't have the drive to do it myself.