[Stealth]

Tweaker, on Jan 9 2009, 08:33 AM, said:

Okay, this back and forth shit is fucking ridiculous. Here's my ultimatum:

To both sides—present a proof-of-concept. Provide a proof-of-concept of your version of the engine, and then we can see what people prefer, what is most feasible, and what will ultimately work best for this project. Both sides have established their position as much as it's going to be established, so now it's about action. Phantron should take his idea of an engine and prep it with project materials. Stealth, or anyone else interested in using E02 should do the same. Once you're both done, present what you have and let the project leaders and community decide which they would rather prefer. If it ends up being a less optimized engine, if it ends up using retarded formats, and if it ends up doing all these things that aren't the most technically sound choices that could be made? That's their decision.

I think we've definitely had enough theory here. If we're going to use E02, we need an E02 programmer. If we're going to use this engine, then we presumably have a programmer. People are only going to work with what they choose to work with, best choice or not. Let's get shit settled.

http://stealth.emula...g/E02/index.php
http://stealth.emulationzone.org/Games/E02...trix-SAGE08.rar
http://stealth.emula...org/S4/S4D1.rar

What do I win?

Seriously, that was kinda dumb. E02 is THERE. It's FULLY capable of being used to create a COMPLETE and ACCURATELY-FUNCTIONING Sonic the Hedgehog game, as demonstrated by my own demo release MONTHS ago in the middle link, and the concept package from the BOTTOM link that I ALREADY posted (and is at the top of this thread, no less) to try and show this project's work in motion. Did it help? No. Noone is actually willing to do anything substantial. If they were, they would have been prototyping the hell out of this game using E02, or even something else, already. Crap, they could use GM or TGF just to get some basic points across.. but they don't. Don't ask me why; I don't know. They have graphics. They want to see the graphics? SLAP IT IN THERE. WOO. It moves, it works JUST like a "real" Sonic the Hedgehog game. They can look at their pretty colors, they can half-ass some enemies and obstacles just to see them in practice.. This is what jayextee asked for from this guy, but guess what! It already exists!

I can't stress enough - I DO NOT CARE IF THE FINAL PRODUCT USES E02. I BASICALLY TALKED THEM OUT OF IT PERSONALLY, AND I DON'T CARE. HOWEVER, if they change their mind, that's fine too. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THEY USE MY SYSTEM JUST BECAUSE IT'S MINE. What MATTERS is that SOMEHOW, it's done RIGHT, and people KNOW what is available and KNOW what they can do, which they obviously DON'T if they're complaining that they can't see anything in action when this is RIGHT HERE.

HOW can you argue that?

Edit-
For those of you just tuning in, I'd like to apply a little context here by reminding everyone that E02 initially became involved in this project by choice of the original project leaders, in some of the earliest days of the original, separate "Sonic 4" forum. I was contacted by both then-leader Phoebius, and then-lead-artist Rika, and was ASKED if they could use E02. I told them I had no problem with it, and Phoebius proceded to create an E02 forum below the ProSonic forum. After a significant period of time with no posts incoming to either thread, nor any discussion whatsoever about the project's engine, for that matter, I whipped up a concept and posted it to try and get the ball rolling; that concept being the one that was reposted at the beginning of this thread. More time passed, this forum was created, and more time still, before I noted that NO solid decisions had been made about the structure, which prompted me to create this thread in hopes of trying to start some substantial discussion, in which I argued both for AND against E02, among other things. Still yet, no firm decision has been made, and we come to this

This post has been edited by Stealth: 09 January 2009 - 12:44 PM

[Tweaker]

Stealth, on Jan 9 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

http://stealth.emula...g/E02/index.php
http://stealth.emulationzone.org/Games/E02...trix-SAGE08.rar
http://stealth.emula...org/S4/S4D1.rar

What do I win?

A wall of text! :D

Quote

Seriously, that was kinda dumb. E02 is THERE. It's FULLY capable of being used to create a COMPLETE and ACCURATELY-FUNCTIONING Sonic the Hedgehog game, as demonstrated by my own demo release MONTHS ago in the middle link, and the concept package from the BOTTOM link that I ALREADY posted (and is at the top of this thread, no less) to try and show this project's work in motion.

Cool. So then we do have a proof-of-concept!

Here's my question to the rest of you—what is your opinion on this proof of concept? Does it contain the kind of physics and gameplay you're looking for? Does it have the capability to display the art you draw for it? Is it possible to do all the things you want to do with this game in it? If so then you already have an engine. The question is, why hasn't anything gone past this?

Are there any programmers other than Stealth who have even bothered to try and learn how E02 works and make a game with it? Anyone? Because if not, then... well, that's why this game doesn't have an engine. E02 is perfect for what this project needs, but it seems everybody expects Stealth to do all the work. I have no idea if he's willing to take up a programming-based role for this game or not, but somebody needs to.

What do you guys prefer? An optimized, largely-portable-to-other-systems engine with programming philosophies like the ones Stealth described earlier, or something that may or may not be as optimized or technically spiffy as it could be, using stuff such as PNG, OGG, and the like? You have to make the decisions on what kind of audio you want to use more than anything else, because what you choose directly affects who is going to be able to produce it; conversely, the engine you choose will change what kind of audio you're able to use. Make the call, and make it quick—because if you don't, it's all worth dick.

(Okay, I'm proud of that one.)

Quote

What MATTERS is that SOMEHOW, it's done RIGHT, and people KNOW what is available and KNOW what they can do, which they obviously DON'T if they're complaining that they can't see anything in action when this is RIGHT HERE.

Huh. Alright then—can I ask something from both you and Phantron here?

I want to ask you two to please lay out the types of things your engines support (or in the latter case, will support). The types of limitations they have, the types of formats they support, what needs to be done to put certain things in-game, etc etc. In the case of E02, Stealth, I already know you have a website with this information available, but do you mind pasting it on here or summarizing it for the sake of contrast? This way nobody can say they don't know what either engine supports, and they can make their decision right now.

This can't be blown off any longer. People, you need to say what you're going to need or want, and make that decision now. No more beating around the bush. It's all about progress.

[Stealth]

I don't know how to start this; mostly because I don't know how to finish it, either. I was asked for this, so rather than let it hang, here goes:

As I always say, because I'm uncomfortable with discussing it any other way, E02 does what it does, and it doesn't do what it doesn't do. The best way to find out would be through a few links I'll provide, some of which I've already posted. The E02 mainpage in particular is a decent summary, and is all one on one page, but it has a few pictures, and I think it's a bit big to post here in it's entirety. Honestly, if somebody wants in on this aspect of the project but can't click on a link and view a single-page summary to find out more, I have serious doubts about their commitment.. Anyway, if it's important, try having a look at the summary page:
http://stealth.emula...g/E02/index.php

Also, for a closer look at the player system, for the sake of modifying player character gameplay, take a look at the system's new documentation in HTML format:
Player Management.html
Player Variables.html
Character Def.html

To learn more about what you can use to manipulate the player, objects, environment, events, menus, etc., see the complete command index listing (by order of ID):
http://stealth.emula.../Functions.html

If it is still of actual interest, don't forget to also view the latest Sonic gameplay demo, if you haven't already seen it (there are full levels that make use of many features not used in the small concept package included at the beginning of this thread), and also look at the included documentation for even more information on how to get the game to behave just the way you want:
http://stealth.emula...trix-SAGE08.rar

I don't know if anyone currently active in the project is actually ready to start on the programming aspects, but it doesn't seem so. There are some basics that still don't have firm decisions, like some of the discussed format issues. However, this remains an option for testing ideas. I can't currently take on this responsibility, but if anyone is willing to learn (and really, I don't believe it to be all that difficult when given the chance), they could begin using it to show off concepts in motion right now. If you want more later, you can still get some rough drafts done to get a handle on what you're doing, and move on when the time comes. If you want to work with a more restricted platform later, it certainly won't hinder you in that respect, either. If nothing better ends up coming along, it will still be a decent option for creating the actual full game. If you DON'T have any significant interest in seeing any of the current work put into practice right now, and you feel that E02 would under no circumstances ever be the right choice for this project, then just skipping the whole thing is another option. I'm just providing the information I was asked for

This post has been edited by Stealth: 13 January 2009 - 06:52 AM

[Chimpo]

I am completely dumbfounded as to why we haven't picked E02 yet.

Is this project run by apes or something?

I have a question that I couldn't seem to find at the site.

I'm assuming the sounds used in the demo are just low quality right?

This post has been edited by Chimpo: 15 January 2009 - 07:41 PM

[Stealth]

That's right. I just recorded the music at 11k and used the sound effects from the S&K screensaver

[Rika Chou]

One thing that I was wondering about the E02 engine, do you have to have a separate duplicate 8x8 tile if you want to use it more than once and have different collision?

This post has been edited by Rika Chou: 15 January 2009 - 10:32 PM

[Stealth]

You do. Each tile has only one collision map, because player/level collision is based entirely on which plane ID is set in Player_Solid_Plane

You can use tiles with solidity and a blank graphic on one plane or the other for crossing paths, though, which is what I do. Those can be reused in other places with different art if they have to be

[Chimpo]

Stealth, on Jan 15 2009, 06:03 PM, said:

That's right. I just recorded the music at 11k and used the sound effects from the S&K screensaver

Oh, alright.

I was just kinda of concerned as to why it sounded like shit.

[nineko]

Quick question, can E02 manage act transitions à la Sonic 3 & Knuckles?
And, in the unlikely event that we'll do zone transitions, can it dinamically load a completely new tileset on the fly?
Ideally we can never go to a black screen if it allows for that.

[Stealth]

nineko, on Jan 16 2009, 10:36 AM, said:

Quick question, can E02 manage act transitions à la Sonic 3 & Knuckles?

I see somebody didn't play enough of the demo :/

nineko, on Jan 16 2009, 10:36 AM, said:

And, in the unlikely event that we'll do zone transitions, can it dinamically load a completely new tileset on the fly?
Ideally we can never go to a black screen if it allows for that.

You can call the load routines any time you want, but you have to remember that there will be access time (brief, but still), and you'll either still have to blackout the level, or load a new tileset, or leave an area at the end of the old level/beginning of the new level with common art and a common design (during one frame, load the new tiles and the new layout, and adjust the player and screen positions) so you don't see one area just suddenly become something entirely different

That should have been kind of self-explanatory, though. Remember that you can control any part of the game from any other part of the game if you structure it right. Try reading the documentation some more; It's missing explanations for some of the newer commands, but otherwise, everything you could want to know is in there

[Chimpo]

Alright, enough playing around.

We can draw all the pretty pictures we want in the world but none of that will mean shit if we don't have anyone competent enough to put them to work.

Who here has the cojones to get started on this?

[RamiroR]

DAMN, WHAT is the problem here?!, why don't we just choose E02, could anybody tell me?, what's happening?, programmers lack?,if a programmer does not appear, I might want to do this (though I'm not THE programmer, but if nobody appears, someone will have to teach me),
so, IS THIS HACK GOING TO BE MADE?

Thank you

This post has been edited by RamiroR: 27 January 2009 - 01:40 PM

[Matwek]

RamiroR, on Jan 27 2009, 06:39 PM, said:

DAMN, WHAT is the problem here?!, why don't we just choose E02, could anybody tell me?, what's happening?, programmers lack?,if a programmer does not appear, I might want to do this (though I'm not THE programmer, but if nobody appears, someone will have to teach me),
so, IS THIS HACK GOING TO BE MADE?

Thank you

Im pretty sure we have choosen E02, we're just waiting on someone who knows how to use it well enough to put together a demo level using the art we already have.

[RamiroR]

Ok, this will take time, and I don't know if Stealth will agree with this:

What if Stealth opens a topic where he could teach us how to use his engine?,We would finally have some people for making this, I don't want to bother Stealth, but I guess he's the one that most knows about this..

So, what do you say?

[nineko]

RamiroR, on Jan 27 2009, 07:58 PM, said:

What if Stealth opens a topic where he could teach us how to use his engine?,We would finally have some people for making this, I don't want to bother Stealth, but I guess he's the one that most knows about this..

Stealth wrote a lot of docs and guides about E02. Someone just needs to read them and learn. If a topic is made it should be for the occasional question, not for a complete and comprehensive E02 class, since at least 99.89% of its functionalities are covered in the docs.