[Stealth]

Jayextee, on Jan 9 2009, 12:28 AM, said:

I'm not going to argue with you, Stealth. The fact that you've had no interest in this project until you were insulted makes me think you have no real passion for it farther than massaging your own ego.

Want me to step down?

You're making assumptions. But maybe you're right, if this is the way you're going to act, maybe I can't be bothered to care. I'd apologize if I felt sorry. At one point, maybe, but you obviously have no interest that this may be more complicated than you perceive, so if you can't be bothered to hear me out, and it's apparent that you didn't care to read anything that I had to say directly to you after your assault, then I can't be bothered with remorse.

Honestly, I wouldn't be bothered if you did. It makes no difference though, it will change none of this

[Jayextee]

I have no personal grudges. I'm willing to debate any particular choices, such as .tga probably being less of a CPU demand than .PNG (Notice that the first question I asked related to .PNG was about the CPU load).

But your doubts about my ability to coordinate a team actually mirror some of my own.

[The Taxman]

hmm... I was waiting for something like this to unfold when Dark Phantron made his post :P

Old Skool v. New Skool programming war!

Seriously though my thoughts as follows:

@ Dark Phantron - No need to use 'modern' stuff like C# (bleh, at least use D or mono) and pixel shaders, this is a 320x240 pixel art styled game here. Software rasterization all the way baby! This game needs be easy to port (I know E02 is Win/DOS specific, but providing there isn't x86 asm code it could be ported easily if stealth desired).

@ Stealth - GIF is actually quite a decent compressed format for stuff like embedded devices, the algorithm is fairly fast and it's possible to write a simple decompression routine that doesn't require dynamic memory buffer allocation (I did this in Retro-Sonic). I know the header format is a bit dodgy but hey, it's worth it since the files are compressed smaller than pcx.

Don't diss OGG either, stylistically a musician might want total control over a composition, which may include stuff like using vocals/instruments in ways sampling can't capture, or analogue studio equipment during the mixing/mastering process. Tracker music is a style unto itself, and comparing the two is like apples and oranges. I know you're looking at this from the view of optimization, but there's not a huge difference in overhead between playback of the two*.

*Talking about 400mhz+ comps here

This post has been edited by The Taxman: 09 January 2009 - 04:43 AM

[Stealth]

Jayextee - I'm really not sure what you're talking about. The graphics aren't stored compressed in RAM, it would be entirely impractical to expect to decompress them during rendering for each frame, that's just too much overhead. The issue is that it's an entirely irrelevant storage format. libpng is way too bulky for just trying to get simple sprite images into a game like this. I hold the same for gif - They may do decently for what they do, but this isn't what they do, they're made for something more complicated. I've had a long-standing inability to understand the public's constant demands for over-featured alternative formats.. I mean, in my case, I guess it has to do with the surprising lack of pcx support lately, but seriously? gif/png/JPG/others? I'm fully aware that I've been asked to do support for other graphic formats by people who thought that using those formats would LIFT PALETTE AND RESOLUTION RESTRICTIONS imposed by the target system. What? No... just.... no. Conversely, I've seen even recent commercial games use the TGA format, which appears to have sufficient support in graphic editing programs

I seriously don't know what else to say, though. I sincerely feel that that initial post was entirely uncalled-for. I'm currently unable to make any further argument in terms of your ability, so I'm not going to try. I also just don't know what else you want to hear that I can say

Taxman - I still think that GIF is going a bit overboard. I personally don't plan on ever using it, as I can't see any possible need whatsoever, and I just thought I'd express that while I was bothering to discuss the project in any way whatsoever, since I felt it was a relevant thing to say. I've also just plain steered clear of the whole thing since the whole patent issue, much in the same way as MP3, but also in a similar fashion, I just don't agree that the format has any relevance to me (or similarly, this project). That leads directly into the tracked/pcm music debate - as I explained (or attempted to) to jayextee, the presence of tracked songs doesn't mean the complete absence of full pcm sounds. That is what the samples for the module are, after all.. and I was still speaking in terms of this project. If it ended up with a fully vocalized soundtrack, I'd have to scream... I have serious doubts that that's anything they're going to have to worry about. Also, I don't dispute that there are instances where you can hear the difference in "style", however, I disagree that the "style" of fully "mastered" music is anything of relevance to this project. That may be what they'd look for for Sonic 2 HD, but in terms of "style", I strongly believe that the "style" of tracked music is entirely relevant to the "style" of this project. There's even pretty much been an unofficial consensus that the music should follow the same "style"/"sound" of the Genesis games, and I agree entirely - my understanding of the intent of this project demands that style. I firmly believe that tracked music is the best choice in this case

Also, you are correct in that I could probably easily port E02 to certain other platforms if I actually owned them. I used standard C, and no special environment/compiler like MSVC. Limiting the potential isn't exactly something I was interested in. On the same note, though, I'm also not unrealistically optimistic. For example, E02 could NEVER run on the DS, it's not designed that way, and that's fine. I could build something that DID, but not E02 - It would have to be even more specific and closed. PSP, sure, it has more processing power and can handle all the scripting and software rendering. That's why I don't understand why C# and XNA are any more relevant

[Jayextee]

I have been approaching discussion with you wrong, Stealth. What this actually reveals to me is the fact that this project could well do with some counsel from somebody with more technical knowledge; the people involved right now are primarily artists of a sort, so we'll probably fight tooth and nail for the freedom offered by such things as a real audio stream (Which, by the way I'm still all for. I can write module music, and I very much prefer being able to drag entire waveform tracks into audacity for processing, for example. 'Style' is a merely superficial thing which can be developed in either way really). The key here really should be compromise; I reacted very harshly to essentially being told "You're doing it wrong" because a new programmer appeared in the apparent absence of another, and have basically being bull-headed about trying to give the artists some freedom; I'm trying to balance everyone's opinions at all times, because if you look here, I'd actually prefer something on the Mega CD.

But you see, compromise.

I've used SonEd, I've seen your other technical achievements; they are outstanding, and certainly speak more than some bragging about what is possible in XNA or whatever. What you have to say is not being taken lightly, but remember that you're probably as much of an artist (Actually, I can't say either way) as most people here are programmers. All skills are required and must be balanced.

Discussion is needed, absolutely. I'm very sure I've got my finger on the pulse as per the common consensus for the music; the vocal track example was purely that - an example, but given the popularity of Sonic CD's EU/JP soundtrack I don't think it should be ruled out; nonetheless, I don't think a firm decision has been made as to whether the graphics are paletted/unpaletted, although Chimpo is very sensibly limiting sprites to 16 colours or less.

This needn't be a cockfight, and I apologise for reacting harshly.

[Chimpo]

Who would ever need more than 16 colors?

[Stealth]

Some of those things spawned from discussions in different threads, but they essentially come back to the programming side, anyway, and my intent was just to target everything I had to say all at once. I was angry at the guy, which is clearly obvious, but it doesn't change how strongly I feel about those subjects. I still would have used the word "disgust" in each thread, but it probably would have come across differently without being headed-up by a complaint about some other guy's arrogance

I've seen the platform thread and the SegaCD discussion, and had I posted in response to a firm decision to actually use the SegaCD, I probably would have promoted use of the PCM sound hardware (for tracked music, similar to the way it was used for Sonic CD's "past" songs) over CDDA, too. I've used this phrase before in discussion of this project, but I believe that leaving things wide open also increases the likelihood that any piece of content becomes "too big for it's britches". I'd hate to look at art or hear a song and think it's entirely too flashy or takes itself too seriously or something. That's not what this stuff is about. Laziness shouldn't be what it's about, either - You shouldn't strive to work without limitation JUST because it's "easier". You want a professional, polished product, you have to be willing to work for it. I've already gone into other advantages of being conservative, anyway.. it's ALWAYS a good idea. I'd rather not see this turn into some slow, bloated, blinding, loud, obnoxious piece of garbage

You're right that I'm not an "artist" in the sense of drawn images, or even music (I'm unhappy with the way the word "art" is used strictly for drawn images - What I do is more art than a million of the images or compositions I've been the unfortunate victim of, and while nobody has any issue with "artists" being a completely pretentious lot based on their supposed "skill", I don't think that THIS particular skill receives as much recognition as it deserves), or at least, I don't consider myself one. I've made a few modified sprites for my own purposes, but I don't really bother with any of that otherwise. That doesn't mean that I don't have any taste, though, and it doesn't make the graphics format used in designing for a game any less relevant in terms of the program. A game needs graphic designers, but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't seek more suitable people just because nearly everyone has and claims to be able to use Photo Shop

Chimpo's attempt to use a "limited" palette was the first I remember seeing, and was a nice surprise. I hope it starts a trend. Sometimes you can do alot with a little

[The Taxman]

Stealth, on Jan 9 2009, 09:12 PM, said:

Taxman - I still think that GIF is going a bit overboard. I personally don't plan on ever using it, as I can't see any possible need whatsoever, and I just thought I'd express that while I was bothering to discuss the project in any way whatsoever, since I felt it was a relevant thing to say. I've also just plain steered clear of the whole thing since the whole patent issue, much in the same way as MP3, but also in a similar fashion, I just don't agree that the format has any relevance to me (or similarly, this project). That leads directly into the tracked/pcm music debate - as I explained (or attempted to) to jayextee, the presence of tracked songs doesn't mean the complete absence of full pcm sounds. That is what the samples for the module are, after all.. and I was still speaking in terms of this project. If it ended up with a fully vocalized soundtrack, I'd have to scream... I have serious doubts that that's anything they're going to have to worry about. Also, I don't dispute that there are instances where you can hear the difference in "style", however, I disagree that the "style" of fully "mastered" music is anything of relevance to this project. That may be what they'd look for for Sonic 2 HD, but in terms of "style", I strongly believe that the "style" of tracked music is entirely relevant to the "style" of this project. There's even pretty much been an unofficial consensus that the music should follow the same "style"/"sound" of the Genesis games, and I agree entirely - my understanding of the intent of this project demands that style. I firmly believe that tracked music is the best choice in this case

I understand you not wanting to bother with compressed formats, but just to clarify for anyone else out there, there's no patent issues with decompressing gifs, only compressing them. What might be desirable though, is to store all the game's assets in a compressed archive of sorts, that way the data size is reduced while at the same time also reducing the clutter of files in the game folder.

[nineko]

The Taxman, on Jan 9 2009, 12:07 PM, said:

What might be desirable though, is to store all the game's assets in a compressed archive of sorts, that way the data size is reduced while at the same time also reducing the clutter of files in the game folder.

PCX files are compressed, actually. RLE compressed.

[The Taxman]

nineko, on Jan 9 2009, 10:16 PM, said:

The Taxman, on Jan 9 2009, 12:07 PM, said:

What might be desirable though, is to store all the game's assets in a compressed archive of sorts, that way the data size is reduced while at the same time also reducing the clutter of files in the game folder.

PCX files are compressed, actually. RLE compressed.

Oh sure, but he did mention tga as well, which isn't always iirc. Plus, there's not just images to consider, but game data as well. Compressing everything at the end saves having to have multiple compression formats I guess. I don't practice what I preach though so yeah XD

[Jayextee]

Stealth, on Jan 9 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

I'd rather not see this turn into some slow, bloated, blinding, loud, obnoxious piece of garbage

This. One of the things I'd most like to see with this project is for it to be a professional-looking affair, far and away better than what is expected from fangames. However, not at the expense of creativity; something I'm trying to coax more of from people.

It does appear that we have the same goal, but are approaching it from different tangents. I'm optimistic that a compromise can be reached, as long as egoes are left at the door, which does include any newcomers .

I do have this to debate though:

Stealth, on Jan 9 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

You're right that I'm not an "artist" in the sense of drawn images, or even music (I'm unhappy with the way the word "art" is used strictly for drawn images - What I do is more art than a million of the images or compositions I've been the unfortunate victim of, and while nobody has any issue with "artists" being a completely pretentious lot based on their supposed "skill", I don't think that THIS particular skill receives as much recognition as it deserves), or at least, I don't consider myself one. I've made a few modified sprites for my own purposes, but I don't really bother with any of that otherwise. That doesn't mean that I don't have any taste, though, and it doesn't make the graphics format used in designing for a game any less relevant in terms of the program. A game needs graphic designers, but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't seek more suitable people just because nearly everyone has and claims to be able to use Photo Shop

Relevant: I'm actually more of a designer than an artist, and a qualified one.

I do see a lot of talent from the artisans here (A term I shall use from now, being more accurate than "artists" -- I see your point with that one. Escher was a designer and an artist. Mondrian was an artist. Kirby was an illustrator. All were artisans.), sometimes better than I could possibly do, but trying to ensure an overall quality and coherence to the work will take some doing with so many cooks at the pot. Also, not to brag, but my personal understanding of form, texture and especially colour are at an advanced level (Which goes with the education, I guess) and so I'm never short of insight as to what works and what doesn't from a visual design point of view. It too is a skill, one I hope to employ in order to better assist those here who may be excellent at pushing pixels around, but may lack in areas such as composition or colour theory.

Stealth, on Jan 9 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

Sometimes you can do alot with a little

I actually have a personal mantra to this effect. It was in a tirade against ripoff minimalist "art" I was delivering once to anyone in earshot, but basically amounted to "Less is more? FUCK NO. Less is always gonna be less. But too much is STILL TOO DAMN MUCH".

[DimensionWarped]

Rika Chou, on Jan 9 2009, 02:19 AM, said:

DimensionWarped, on Jan 9 2009, 08:08 AM, said:

Have you ever seen a rom hack that even comes close to being a whole new game? I know I haven't. Even Megamix is a long way off from that.

That does not mean it's not possible, just because it hasn't been done. With the right people working on this, with the work I've seen posted so far, it could be done. (though the awesome sprites that are being made would suffer because of the palette limits.)

It could always be done for the 32x, that way the sprites would work. It could be written from scratch so it wouldn't be a ROM hack. (Though Sonic 2 and 3 were both kinda hacks of the previous game...)

Though in the end I just don't want this to be for PC only, as long as I can play it on a game system then I'll be happy.

Oh, I know it's possible, but I'll definitely say it's more difficult and less malleable in the end than just creating a new engine all together. And most of the advantages of having it on the Genesis format are novelties at best.

[Dark Phantron]

Jeez, calm down Stealth. I did take a short look at E02, but no matter how good the engine I'd still be worried about running into a limitation somewhere somehow. I wasn't necessarily saying that there was any problem, and I meant to say that if I were starting a project I wouldn't want to use someone's elses engine just because I prefer to create things on my own. I didn't mean to imply that you had no skill or something. I'm sorry if I offended you.

Still, in any case I think you overreacted. I never expected anyone to really take me seriously anyway until I had something to show for it. I actually expected someone to be developing it with E02 while I was working on it so in case I couldn't match E02 or something happened to where I couldn't work on the engine that the project would still continue.

I know that developing in languages like C will end up with a far cleaner and faster engine, but it could also take much longer to make. C# may be a 'lazy' language, but it speeds up and simplifies development so much I'd use C# over C any day. Still, I was thinking that once we had the finalized C# engine, it wouldn't take too much to convert it to a multi-playform engine. All conversion requires is finding the language's equivalencies, and then time.

For palette related stuff, yes I comepletely agree that even though we have the capability to use as many colors as we want I think limiting them is the best way to go, and I wouldn't want anything but the old dithering technique used for the textures. As for the palette rotations, I have an idea on how to do this without eating up the CPU/GPU, but yeah dynamic Hueing does take up far too much memory to be used reasonably. The choice of texture format and amount of colors isn't my decision to make.

For textures and music, moduled music and .tga might be more efficient and suit our needs, it would also be more difficult to create and modify than using .OGGs and .PNGs. I personally would prefer moduled music and TGAs though, I knew that they worked a lot better, I just thought that the team might not of had the proper software to develop them. I especially would love it if the music was done with Genesis-esque instruments, but again it really isn't my choice to make.

If this project uses E02, I really don't have a problem with it, it seemed like no one around here really knew how to use it. Since the project seemed to gather some great talent but lacked a programmer, I was worried that if they didn't get one that it might have folded, so I volunteered. I did not volunteer for the project because I thought it was 'cool', I volunteered because I thought it's members were and deserved a programmer to get this project on the move. In any case, even though Stealth should use a little more tact, he is right to question my (and C#'s) abilities. Again this is why I want to prove myself before you declare me the project's programmer.

Still, I'm glad that there's another engine around. It'll make me try to do everything possible to outdo it (before you get angry Stealth, I'm saying try to, not necessarily declaring I will), and in the end if I finish the engine it'll probably end up better than if my engine was the only one.

By the way, Jayextee, thanks so much for sticking out for me while I wasn't here to defend myself.

This post has been edited by Dark Phantron: 09 January 2009 - 08:48 AM

[Jayextee]

Dark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 01:43 PM, said:

By the way, Jayextee, thanks so much for sticking out for me while I wasn't here to defend myself.

In truth, I tried my best to remain neutral, and more responded harshly to Stealth's objections. You still have to show us what you've got

[Dark Phantron]

Jayextee, on Jan 9 2009, 08:47 AM, said:

Dark Phantron, on Jan 9 2009, 01:43 PM, said:

By the way, Jayextee, thanks so much for sticking out for me while I wasn't here to defend myself.

In truth, I tried my best to remain neutral, and more responded harshly to Stealth's objections. You still have to show us what you've got

Yeah, the way he chose to express his objections I believe was completely unwarranted. However, since Stealth is such a great and experienced programmer, I'd love to discuss programming, optimization and the like with him to make sure that the engine is as efficient and as powerful as possible. Atleast, that is if Stealth is willing to.

I think I've said over and over and over again that I haven't yet proven myself yet. During the weekend, I'm going to get working on the engine and should have something to show for it by the end of Sunday (although I might not post it until Monday morning).