[Matwek]

It could always just start as a charge but then after a few seconds or when you leave the ground he curls up into a ball.

[HighFrictionZone]

Wait. If the goal is something that can be charged up, damages enemies, and eventually ends with you in a ball bouncing of badniks, WHY are we even bothering with it? A spindash by any other name is still just as deadly. Thus why bother making a knuckles-specific re-skin for the spindash since that only invites questions such as what happens if he runs off an edge/bounces off a badnik/ etc? Wouldn't it just be easier to take something that we know works (spindash), NOT change it at all (spindash), and leave it at that (spindash)?
I always failed to see WHY anyone would consider making a knuckles specific re-skin for the spindash since he's used the spindash in all his 2D appearances to date and invites extra work when we haven't even finished much in the way of art.
Explain?

[ICEknight]

Quote

A spindash by any other name is still just as deadly. Thus why bother making a knuckles-specific re-skin for the spindash since that only invites questions such as what happens if he runs off an edge/bounces off a badnik/ etc? Wouldn't it just be easier to take something that we know works (spindash), NOT change it at all (spindash), and leave it at that (spindash)?
I always failed to see WHY anyone would consider making a knuckles specific re-skin for the spindash since he's used the spindash in all his 2D appearances to date and invites extra work when we haven't even finished much in the way of art.

Completely agreed...

[Chimpo]

Quote

Explain?

Because you kids are silly and think I'm really going to allow such a change to happen.

[Amistat]

Chimpo said:

Because you kids are silly and think I'm really going to allow such a change to happen.

Fair enough.

What's next on the agenda?

[STHX]

Amistat, on Feb 4 2009, 04:12 AM, said:

What's next on the agenda?

I still think the best thing is to focus on one thing at time only.
If we are discussing moves for characters, it is best to focus on Sonic alone, and after discuss the other characters.


I already stressed that this game must keep a simple approach to moves, and, as with the Genesis games, use only one button, otherwise we will repeat the "Sonic Advance mistake" (tons of unnecessary and useless moves). But this alone doesn't make it simple. How a move is triggered also makes the difference, since having to press the buttons a certain amounts of time or in a certain order makes the input more complex (note well: I assume we are all expert players. The term "complex" I'm referring too is only related to the classic Sonic games, which were pretty simple in the controls. Remember Sonic is not Street Fighter)
If we will use a total of 5 buttons (UP, DOWN, LEFT, RIGHT, A, for example), and, assuming you can't press the four directional buttons together (you can't press up and down together) these inputs are "simple":

UP
DOWN
LEFT
RIGHT
A
UP+A
DOWN+A
LEFT+A
RIGHT+A
(in air) A
(Other "in air" inputs can't be used, since the character controls is semi-locked in air, although mostly at high speed)

Every other button combination is complex by the above definition.
Of course it is easy to fill some of those inputs:

UP: Look up (camera scrolls up. Tipical platformer action)
DOWN: Crouch (camera scrolls down. As above)
LEFT: Move Left (no need to debate over this)
RIGHT: Move Right (as above)
A: Jump (referred from now on as "Roll")
LEFT/RIGHT+A: Jump Left/Right

These are the controls for the first Sonic game. During time, other classic games added other moves to Sonic, but all of them always used simple controls:

DOWN+A: Spin-Dash (from Sonic 2. The most classic Sonic move. I don't think further discussion is needed)
UP+A: Peel-Out (from Sonic CD. This move will be discussed a lot, but not now. Let's get to the point first)
(in air) A: Insta-Shield (from Sonic 3. This move offers various opportunities dependings on the shield equipped)

You'll probably notice that all the easy inputs were filled:
UP: Look up
DOWN: Crouch
LEFT: Move Left
RIGHT: Move Right
A: Jump
LEFT/RIGHT+A: Jump Left/Right
DOWN+A: Spin-Dash
UP+A: Peel-Out
(in air) A: Insta-Shield

Every game added a new move. However they also filled all the spaces. We already discussed to give Sonic the ability to walljump, allowing him to reach places where only he can go (as explained some pages ago). My point now is: I don't think Sonic really needs other moves. Sonic is fast (as every playable character) and agile. All these moves fits with this. They are not out of place. As I already said the Pell-Out will cause some arguing, since it was always a discussed move. I like the Pell-Out. It fits Sonic style. It fits Sonic gameplay. Probably it needs to be tuned out a little (it may allow Sonic to run at a highter max speed than normal running, a max speed only he can reach and that can be reached only in this way).


But before going on let's summarize this:
Sonic doesn't really needs other moves besides the ones he used in the previous games and the wall-jump. Adding tons of moves is not always good, especially if they ends up mostly useless or if they don't have any usefulness on a gameplay perspective.
The Peel-Out, hated by some, loved by some, is the only move that in my opinion needs to be discussed for Sonic. All other moves must be in the game unchanged. Every other move beside those is unneeded.

[Chimpo]

Peel-Out is broken as shit.

If some of you hate the Spin-Dash, then I have no idea how you love the Peel-Out.

It's the only move that gives you a high-speed boost, AND allows you to keep it. You're not exactly "vulnerable" either as many claim. If there's an enemy ahead, all you do is press down. Congratulations, you are now an invincible hyper speed ball of doom. And if there's a slope coming up, hoo-boy! You're already going at top speed aren't you?!

Peel-Out's function is the same as the Spin-Dash. They both give you a burst of speed with some charge time. The difference between the two is that the Peel-Out gives you the maximum speed, and allows you to maintain it as well as provide you the freedom to brake or roll to attack any oncoming obstacle with ease.

The Spin-Dash gives you a speed depending on how much you charge it, you cannot keep the speed as you will begin to decelerate, and if you want to slow down, you better jump or hit a wall, because you sure as hell have don't have any breaks.

The Spin-Dash is perfectly balance for the reward it gives you. The Peel-Out is not.

Why do we need two charge moves, especially when one is an imbalance piece of shit compared to another one that doesn't possess the same problem.

This post has been edited by Chimpo: 06 February 2009 - 05:20 PM

[OSM]

I say we keep the spin dash and axe the peel out. That felt like a Sonic CD exclusive more then anything.

[nineko]

I can't believe someone likes the peel-out for real. The spin dash is all you need.

[Master Emerald]

Quote

That felt like a Sonic CD exclusive more then anything.

It was included in Sonic Chaos and Sonic Triple Trouble too! =P

[Aquaslash]

Master Emerald, on Feb 6 2009, 06:56 PM, said:

Quote

That felt like a Sonic CD exclusive more then anything.

It was included in Sonic Chaos and Sonic Triple Trouble too! =P

That was Strike Dash.

The difference being Strike Dash makes you temporarily invincible.

[LordOfSquad]

I always felt having the peelout and the traditional spindash in the same game (ala Sonic Retro or Sonic Megamix) was a bit silly. The peelout needs Sonic CD's spindash to balance it out, otheriwse there's no real point.

[Tweaker]

LordOfSquad, on Feb 7 2009, 02:28 PM, said:

I always felt having the peelout and the traditional spindash in the same game (ala Sonic Retro or Sonic Megamix) was a bit silly. The peelout needs Sonic CD's spindash to balance it out, otheriwse there's no real point.

In Megamix specifically, there is a distinct advantage to using the Peel-Out not present in Sonic CD—progression. In Sonic CD, you could jump after rolling with full control over Sonic's aerial movement; however, in Sonic 1, 2, Megamix, et al, such a luxury is not available.

In Sonic 2 and 3, you'll notice that once you roll and try to jump, you no longer have control over your momentum and will gradually slow down. This means, of course, that any attempts at increasing your momentum that aren't based on rolling down hills and such will be halted much quicker than if you were running.

The Peel-Out allows Sonic full control of his movement after execution. Not only this, but it also shoots him off faster, allowing that distinct advantage in terms of potential speed. If you peel-out and jump at the same time, you'll be flung ridiculous distances, complete with control of Sonic's movement. There are quite a few advantages to having both, but they probably won't matter to the casual player.

For the record, by no means am I saying that this is a reason why Project Retro should have both the Spin Dash and Peel-Out; I'm just clearing up a few things.

[synchronizer]

I wish that the figure-8 style running animation could be included somehow. Maybe when Sonic goes significantly faster than his normal running speed? I think some hacks did this actually.

This post has been edited by synchronizer: 07 February 2009 - 03:46 PM

[Overlord]

synchronizer, on Feb 7 2009, 08:46 PM, said:

I wish that the figure-8 style running animation could be included somehow. Maybe when Sonic goes significantly faster than his normal running speed? I think some hacks did this actually.

Yeah. iirc Megamix does.