[Wetflame]

Phoebius, on Jul 25 2008, 06:32 PM, said:

When I made this thread, I had in mind to make a sonic sequel as if Sonic Team made a Sonic 4 on genesis. I don't say that the Sonic adventure serie was bad, but it took another direction. That's why I'd like the game to be set after S3kn, like a parallel story.
I thought it was clear.

But what's the point in that? There are plenty of fangames that do that. Sonic Team wouldn't have made a Sonic 4 on the genesis anyway.

I don't see how Sonic Adventure, the first at least, took a different direction? It changed some of the character designs and made it 3D. But it still had a lot of the feel of S3K era Sonic. Throwing away Sonic Adventure, all you're doing is throwing away the backstory for the Chaos emeralds, etc., and with SA2, Robotnik's stuff.

Honestly, what are you going to do in this game that can't be done having the Adventure games in canon? This is the question. You're only adding to the possibilities, unless you want to re-explain the Chaos Emeralds and give Robotnik a new grandfather. Which you're not going to do, given the HURR STORIES IN SONIC ARE FOR FAGGOTS vibe I'm getting here. I see no reason why this game can't be used to tell a good story, even if it's S3K mute style. Sonic Team would have moved forwards from that, not backwards.

It would be much more productive to make this a community sequel but it seems there is too muh division here for that to happen. Remember some of us would nearly consider Adventure o be "retro", seperating it from the Sonic X era.

This post has been edited by Wetflame: 25 July 2008 - 06:41 PM

[Tweaker]

Quote

But with all the bitching about the 3D series, the whole point of this was to make a Genesis styled game had they continued in that direction. That was made clear in the FIRST POST. To completely ignore that is just ignorant. This could still easily be a community project, but with everyone side tracking it and ignoring the original ideas, no wonder there's already BAWing.

I don't think you get what I'm saying, though. By no means am I saying to add the homing attack and light dash and 50000 extra characters—I'm saying to not completely ignore that continuity, because regardless of how bad it seems it's still part of the continuity, and the Adventure games were probably the last two Sonic games before the series went downhill.

You know, even the first Adventure game still had surreal levels. Can you honestly imagine something like Windy Valley existing? Because I can't. And that's the point—it wasn't as super-realistic as you guys are playing it off to be, and I think some of its concepts deserve recognition, as long as they don't overpower what made the 2D games redeeming. That's the point I'm trying to get across here.

Everybody here is so caught up over the idea that 3D = bad that they're not seeing the whole picture. Is Megamix bad because it included some concepts from the 3D games? Because I always thought it was fun as hell—and I've always preferred the 2D games.

[Wetflame]

The Shad, on Jul 25 2008, 06:37 PM, said:

But with all the bitching about the 3D series, the whole point of this was to make a Genesis styled game had they continued in that direction. That was made clear in the FIRST POST. To completely ignore that is just ignorant. This could still easily be a community project, but with everyone side tracking it and ignoring the original ideas, no wonder there's already BAWing.

I motion EDfaggotry like "Baww" and "butthurt" be banned from the thread, as they are anti-critical thinking terms writing off valid complaints as "whining", without having to go to effort to debnk them.

Also, some things have to be argued out before we can reach a solution. Grow some fucking balls, Evan.

[Aquaslash]

Wetflame, on Jul 25 2008, 07:39 PM, said:

Phoebius, on Jul 25 2008, 06:32 PM, said:

When I made this thread, I had in mind to make a sonic sequel as if Sonic Team made a Sonic 4 on genesis. I don't say that the Sonic adventure serie was bad, but it took another direction. That's why I'd like the game to be set after S3kn, like a parallel story.
I thought it was clear.

But what's the point in that? There are plenty of fangames that do that. Sonic Team wouldn't have made a Sonic 4 on the genesis anyway.

I don't see how Sonic Adventure, the first at least, took a different direction? It changed some of the character designs and made it 3D. But it still had a lot of the feel of S3K era Sonic. Throwing away Sonic Adventure, all you're doing is throwing away the backstory for the Chaos emeralds, etc., and with SA2, Robotnik's stuff.

Honestly, what are you going to do in this game that can't be done having the Adventure games in canon? This is the question. You're only adding to the possibilities, unless you want to re-explain the Chaos Emeralds and give Robotnik a new grandfather. Which you're not going to do, given the HURR STORIES IN SONIC ARE FOR FAGGOTS vibe I'm getting here. I see no reason why this game can't be used to tell a good story, even if it's S3K mute style. Sonic Team would have moved forwards from that, not backwards.

It would be much more productive to make this a community sequel but it seems there is too muh division here for that to happen. Remember some of us would nearly consider Adventure o be "retro", seperating it from the Sonic X era.

God dammit, I was seriously getting ready to say just that.

Also, I think it was made very clear that the next canon games in the storyline after S3K were indeed Chaotix and Adventure, and the former is debatable at that.

All evidence points to Chaotix being the direction they were headed in. There's pretty much two scrapped games leading up to it.

However, it seems your goal is to basically make an alternate version of S3K. That said, I think you need to either re-evaluate your goals, or drop trying to be canon and do your own thing.

[Wetflame]

Tweaker, on Jul 25 2008, 06:46 PM, said:

Quote

But with all the bitching about the 3D series, the whole point of this was to make a Genesis styled game had they continued in that direction. That was made clear in the FIRST POST. To completely ignore that is just ignorant. This could still easily be a community project, but with everyone side tracking it and ignoring the original ideas, no wonder there's already BAWing.

I don't think you get what I'm saying, though. By no means am I saying to add the homing attack and light dash and 50000 extra characters—I'm saying to not completely ignore that continuity, because regardless of how bad it seems it's still part of the continuity, and the Adventure games were probably the last two Sonic games before the series went downhill.

You know, even the first Adventure game still had surreal levels. Can you honestly imagine something like Windy Valley existing? Because I can't. And that's the point—it wasn't as super-realistic as you guys are playing it off to be, and I think some of its concepts deserve recognition, as long as they don't overpower what made the 2D games redeeming. That's the point I'm trying to get across here.

Everybody here is so caught up over the idea that 3D = bad that they're not seeing the whole picture. Is Megamix bad because it included some concepts from the 3D games? Because I always thought it was fun as hell—and I've always preferred the 2D games.

Adventure had he same level style as Sonic 3K, really, except made much more Race-track like since it was a fairly early 3D adventure game, really. There are obviously going to be differences in 3D with voice acting, etc. I think it would have been cool if they made a 3D game that captured the slightly more systematic level layout rather than the more set piece based ones, but FFS that has no bearing on including them in the continuity, so we can still re-use some of those concepts if needed.

They act as if Tails fucking died or something.

I'd like to point out the Irony that Adventure is a much better game than a fan-made Sonic 2 clone will ever be.

You're not going to beat them at their own game, so you need to move forward. And Adventure gives you better precedent to do so.

Also, FURTHERMORE, I think a LOT more people would have liked to have seen an alternate follow up to SA2 than we got with Heroes and Shadow(though the Metal Sonic stuff in Heroes is very cool, IMO, this should still be pre-Heroes as Heroes in of itself only brought stuff back, it didn't invent anything new as such).

This post has been edited by Wetflame: 25 July 2008 - 06:53 PM

[The Shad]

The problem with this whole arguement is flawed. The whole point of this project is to take Sonic Genesis and keep going has if SA never came to be. Thats the problem with the arguement right there. The people arguing against it can't think before SA1. There was never any need for a homing attack in the 2D games because the enemies were right in front of you. Homing attack was introduced in 3D Blast and subsequently afterwards because its hard to hit enemies Sonic style on the 3D Plane.

Its just.. I don't understand any of this. Its the same damn thing as if someone barged into the Sonic 2 HD project and starting telling everyone that Sonic 2 3D would be better, then started bitching because he didn't get his way.

[Ollie]

Before I start having my say, I know that one voice isn't going to change anything but, I really have to have my say. Right, I haven't really read all of this since there were a few things that were bothering me with the original (Overview) post, there are a few pieces of art seem to be reused from other Sonic games, now. If this is going to be "Sonic 4" which I don't see why not, then shouldn't it have brand new art that follows the similar to Sonic 3 (Since it wasn't as simple as the previous two game)


Now to throw in my contribution, even though it's not much at the moment, I'm writing a script for to use to get involved and maybe used as inspiration for ideas. I'll also sketch a few concept art for extra ideas to. If there are a need for an Assistant Cordiantor, then I would be interested since I can throw in C&C and do various little bits and bobs along the way such as art and a tad bit of programming.

So yeah, I'll post my script once it is done if you are interested? It will contain various stuff, mainly minor stuff, like Level/Game Structures, Level Names, A LOAD of concept ideas. Etc etc. I know it's not much, but I thought it might be useful for people who would like to contribute to this project.

Finally, I have a few questions, is this going to be a mass Rom Hack or a Fan Game? Personally, I would have thought if it was going to be Sonic 4 it should be for the Megadrive right? To follow the tradition and all? Oh and should you really wait until Sonic 2 HD is finished, that way a lot more members would be free to work on this project so progress will be faster and maybe overall better?

[Tweaker]

The Shad, on Jul 25 2008, 08:03 PM, said:

The problem with this whole arguement is flawed. The whole point of this project is to take Sonic Genesis and keep going has if SA never came to be. Thats the problem with the arguement right there. The people arguing against it can't think before SA1. There was never any need for a homing attack in the 2D games because the enemies were right in front of you. Homing attack was introduced in 3D Blast and subsequently afterwards because its hard to hit enemies Sonic style on the 3D Plane.

Its just.. I don't understand any of this. Its the same damn thing as if someone barged into the Sonic 2 HD project and starting telling everyone that Sonic 2 3D would be better, then started bitching because he didn't get his way.

The idea is to take elements where appropriate. It was mentioned earlier in the thread that a gold shield, ala Sonic 3D, could be added to grant temporary use of the homing attack. This could be used to access secret paths and access other goodies that wouldn't be normally accessible.

I just proposed a Sonic Adventure element. Is it automatically horrible based on that merit? Megamix does just fine with a homing attack and makes similar use of it—why couldn't the same thing be done here?

[The Shad]

I'm not arguing about using elements. I think thats a great idea. I really do. But Wetflame is making a HUGE shitfest over the timeline when its been made very clear where we're going with it. You then jumped on us because of Q saying what we all said in the sonic4project channel. So I'm really not sure what all the fucking bullshit is about. People need to get their head out of their asses and actually finish reading everything because now its pissing me off.

[Phoebius]

The Shad, on Jul 26 2008, 02:16 AM, said:

I'm not arguing about using elements. I think thats a great idea. I really do. But Wetflame is making a HUGE shitfest over the timeline when its been made very clear where we're going with it. You then jumped on us because of Q saying what we all said in the sonic4project channel. So I'm really not sure what all the fucking bullshit is about. People need to get their head out of their asses and actually finish reading everything because now its pissing me off.

+1

[Wetflame]

The Shad, on Jul 25 2008, 07:03 PM, said:

The problem with this whole arguement is flawed. The whole point of this project is to take Sonic Genesis and keep going has if SA never came to be. Thats the problem with the arguement right there. The people arguing against it can't think before SA1. There was never any need for a homing attack in the 2D games because the enemies were right in front of you. Homing attack was introduced in 3D Blast and subsequently afterwards because its hard to hit enemies Sonic style on the 3D Plane.

Its just.. I don't understand any of this. Its the same damn thing as if someone barged into the Sonic 2 HD project and starting telling everyone that Sonic 2 3D would be better, then started bitching because he didn't get his way.

Because of the point I raised, what can you do disregarding the Adventure games that you can't including them?

The original idea had a weak premise to begin with. Sonic 2 HD on the otherhand is about something much more specific. This is an idea for a game project - not doing something specific to an existing one. As such it can change, and actually, continuity is a minor thing to have to change.

[Tweaker]

Phoebius, on Jul 25 2008, 08:17 PM, said:

+1

Wow, what a great leadership voice.

I think I'm going to take a cue from Aquaslash and temporarily lock this thread. Too much shit. Maybe you guys can take the time to work things out in the meantime, but know that being downright intolerant won't gain you any support, nor will it maintain any peace.

EDIT: Unlocked.

[GameNerd Advance]

Honestly, everybody please shut up for a second.

Consider this; is counting the post-S3K continuity a priority? Regardless of wether or not it takes place before or after Sonic Adventure, it will likely have no effect on gameplay, sound and graphics. I mean, Sonic Pocket Adventure likely took place post-SA. What difference did it make? Oh. Right. Sonic's art looked a bit different and Robotnik had a slightly altered sprite; there would hardly have been uproar if these two features weren't included.

[The Shad]

Well, you're about 12 hours too late. Honestly, lets drop it, ok?

[Wetflame]

Well, I for one motion that the community's time will be better spent on fixing the series problems instead of ignoring an important part of the series completely. A speculative "Sonic 4" isn't going to be anything like what Sonic Team would actually have done, and you can bet XG will get a lot closer. Why make another XG?

Post SA will only have minor changes, but minor changes that are important for a lot of us.

It's great how TheShad wants us to "drop it", since that means his opinion will be accepted by default.