[Pelord]

This would be an interesting project to try and bring back some of the ideas a bunch of us had for SegaSonic The Hedgehog Advance many years ago.

(Never thought I would mention that again...)

I don't think any of the art we had (which wasn't much, it was just concept art I made from editing screen shots from Sonic Advance) would work, but we had some unique ideas for stages.

[Jenna]

Two words.

"Sonic Begins" *bricked by Batman*

I like the idea of a totally original Sonic. In fact, I would pour everything I've got into it, which sadly wouldn't be a whole lot, but it's something.

[Jayextee]

Quote

Why don't WE make Sonic 4?

After thinking about this, how about we don't.

[Aquaslash]

Now if you lot wanna make a game together that's one thing. Just don't call it Sonic 4. Sonic 4 as we know it is Sonic Crackers, and that got scrapped.

Seriously, just play Sonic Advance.

[saxman]

Sonic Zero is a nifty name if you wanna put a number in it. But then you have to have an excuse for calling it that...

[Soselocke]

I'm in the same boat as most everyone else. Don't call it Sonic 4. You can make it original and maybe allude to the original games, but I'd like to see a more original game. You can implement new techniques for characters (modify Mighty's wall kick for Sonic, so that Sonic can bounce around as a ball) or make new team-ups (Sonic & Tails, Knuckles & Tails, Sonic & Knuckles, etc). Instead of blatantly and arrogantly titling it Sonic 4, why not something like "Sonic The Hedgehog: Evolution" or perhaps "ProSonic The Hedgehog" if it is used with the new ProSonic engine?

[Tweaker]

I like how everybody is saying "lol don't split your resources."

PROTIP: Megamix has people who take their individual talents and combine them to make something awesome. How is an original Sonic game by a community of Retro Sonic fans a bad thing? You can spout whatever claims of "it will be a failure" you want out of your ass, but with proper leadership, this could get off the ground and end up brilliantly.

In case you're still confused, I just offered my endorsement. Let's do this.

[GHNeko]

OH SHIT. TWEAKER'S ON BOARD. LETS DO THIS SHIT.

First thing's first. Can we get a real damn name?

[Rika Chou]

I would love to see something like this done, especially if it was actually a Genesis ROM instead of some windows fangame.

Personally though, I wouldn't be able to help at all unless I quit work on my hack. If nothing else, I would gladly let my badniks be used:

[Jayextee]

I foresee problems with the project already. I have tried to start a discussion with people in IRC, and I have got a lot of responses to the tune of "It should have xxx" or "It should be yyy", a lot of cooks adding ingredients to the broth already without even knowing what we're cooking. As I put it "Not enough questions, and too many false answers".

For example, one such exchange was whether it should be closer to Sonic CD or Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Well, does it have to be like either? I think a mature discussion about where the Sonic series was headed, where it didn't go and where it could have headed is completely necessary on all fronts before even deciding what it "should" be.

In order to get this completely right, there has to be a lot of careful consideration. How would this differ from yet another fangame? What sort of things would be presented to the player? What sort of reaction do we want? How would the player interact with this? Is it necessary to stick to certain conventions? If so, why? What should be kept? What should be stripped? -- ALL of which are a lot more important than anybody would think right now.

I was told in IRC "This doesn't need a lot of planning, we all know what Sonic 4 should be", and this couldn't be farther from the truth. We all know what Sonic 3 and Knuckles was and there is a semi-common consensus that the next thing to keep the spirit alive was Sonic Advance. However, what were the common elements between the two? Was the addition of Amy the only thing 'added', or was it the special moves? Was it more? How was the focus shifted?

I've seen none of these answered. I mean, I have my own vision of what a Sonic sequel should be, as we all do. However, whereas I can guarantee it wouldn't be the same as anyone else's vision, I can't say whether this would make it inferior or not. The same thing applies, if someone wants to add every Sonic Team character created and (Somehow) alternate routes in the levels for each and every one of them; although they'd probably get laughed out of the discussion without a second's thought, there would be no real consideration as to what is viable, or feasible.

Basically, my main gut reaction says "Don't do it. You will not agree, and if you do, the result will try and please all the people all of the time, which is not possible".

HOWEVER, an intelligent discussion must be had, throwing many ideas into a pot (As it were) and seeing if it's actually possible for people to see eye to eye on this one.

Tread carefully.

[Jenna]

Ok, 'throwing ideas into the pot' sounds like a good idea. My ideas are:

Sonic, Tails, Knuckles as playable characters.
Robotnik as the main villain. and by Robotnik, I mean badass over the top evil Robotnik.
Animal based badniks that reveal animals when you pop them.
Super Sonic is playable in levels. However, there is no Hyper Sonic.
Surreal environments, such as those seen in Green Hill and Hill Top and such. So far, the work phoebious has posted looks fantastic in that regard.
Point Combos similar to Sonic Adventure 2 (killing 8 bots in a row not only gets you the normal amount of points, but also a bonus 800 or something)
Fire Shield, Bubble Shield, Lightning Shield, standard shield, and an Ice Shield. The Ice Shield would make you immune to ice based attacks, but would freeze on contact with water, hurting you.

I could delve into specifics if you want, but nobody will probably listen so I'll save myself the effort.

[saxman]

I'm with Tweaker on this. But on the note of leadership which is a very good thing to point out, people are making complaints about this over a name. In my personal opinion, the name isn't very important right now. We could call this "My Cool Fan Game" for now and that would be fine by me. The logical step would be to have a plan. What are you doing, how many levels, offer some kind of storyboard, goals, etc. That way, everyone knows what to expect. I think that will dampen the number of complaints this topic has been getting.

A name isn't important right now. The plan is.

[GHNeko]

Jenna, on Jul 18 2008, 10:56 PM, said:

Sonic, Tails, Knuckles as playable characters.

I vouch for this as well as character combinations, such as Sonic and Tails, but take it up a notch with custom combinations, IE SA3.

Jenna, on Jul 18 2008, 10:56 PM, said:

Robotnik as the main villain. and by Robotnik, I mean badass over the top evil Robotnik.

Yes. This all the way.

Jenna, on Jul 18 2008, 10:56 PM, said:

Animal based badniks that reveal animals when you pop them.

wasn't then in S1 through S3K and even in other Sonic Games? I figured this would be default.

Jenna, on Jul 18 2008, 10:56 PM, said:

Super Sonic is playable in levels. However, there is no Hyper Sonic.

I can see the logic, but if there is a Super Sonic, there should be a Super Tails and Knuckles, right? Taking it a step further, each character has their own "Doomsday Zone"

Jenna, on Jul 18 2008, 10:56 PM, said:

Surreal environments, such as those seen in Green Hill and Hill Top and such. So far, the work phoebious has posted looks fantastic in that regard.

Again, I thought this would be default, as most Sonic games start out in a environment such as this. What I suggest though, all levels fade into each other. Like in Sonic 3, as you beat act one, Act 2 is right there, but in this game, as you near the end of Act 2 of a Zone, parts and signs of the next stage appear for you to transition to, making the whole game feel like its one hueg level.

Jenna, on Jul 18 2008, 10:56 PM, said:

Point Combos similar to Sonic Adventure 2 (killing 8 bots in a row not only gets you the normal amount of points, but also a bonus 800 or something)

That will only be insinuated if there is some sort of homing attack, but other than that, I don't think we should.

Jenna, on Jul 18 2008, 10:56 PM, said:

Fire Shield, Bubble Shield, Lightning Shield, standard shield, and an Ice Shield. The Ice Shield would make you immune to ice based attacks, but would freeze on contact with water, hurting you.

I like the Ice Shield, but the point of shields are to protect you, not harm you. If you have an ice shield, and you fall in water, I say it should fade in time, since the water around the shield is warmer. Also, with the Ice Shield, you would NOT slip on icy surfaces, also insinuating that on Icy Levels, there is slipping and sliding. And I also vote for bringing back shield powers.

---

God I hate picking apart posts.


EDIT: Working on a plan. Gimme a few minutes.

EDIT2: Plan here.

As for the direction that this game should go in, I honestly think that it should be something similar to S3K as I'm sure it would be easier to follow from this rather than Sonic CD. Though the game itself would have to stand on its own, and show that it isn't a S3K 2, or an S3K 1.5 or something of the sorta. We should take a few elements from the older sonic games, and use them to help give the game a Sonic feel, but really, we have to create our own elements that make the game its own and something that fans would call an actual sonic game. As for PC or ROM Hack, It all depends on what is possible, what we can do, which is easier, which would fetch better results, etc. I would personally vouch for a fangame because that could possibly lead to something with more content down the line. Though a ROM Hack isn't too far away from content as well, its just too limiting compared to a PC Fangame.

This post has been edited by GHNeko: 18 July 2008 - 10:14 PM

[Jayextee]

Jenna, on Jul 19 2008, 03:56 AM, said:

Point Combos similar to Sonic Adventure 2 (killing 8 bots in a row not only gets you the normal amount of points, but also a bonus 800 or something)

As you know, in IRC I proposed a scoring system based around combos, to illustrate a point; that it would get shot down without being considered, which it did.

However, this is actually a minor thing to most people. When trying to merely complete Sonic Advanture 2, do most people even give three hoots about how many consecutive enemy bounces they get? No. However, they have no problem with being awarded the extra points if they nail it.

I proposed a combo scoring system because I love the one in NiGHTS, and I think that a similar system would NOT change the core gameplay, but could possibly add another dimension of replayability. After all, the time-attackers have their timer in the top-left of the screen, why can't we appease the score-attack element as well?

But, the idea was shot down because it was "not old school". OR IS IT?

Get this: SONIC THE HEDGEHOG 1 HAS A COMBO SCORING SYSTEM. As you hit enemies consecutively, you are awarded 100, 200, 500, 1000 and even 10000 points. THIS IS A COMBO SYSTEM? And like the universal one-hit shield to the elemental shields, what harm would there be in enhancing something already there? Hell, that's about as Sonic-esque as you can get! And there's another thing.

Watch me!

You can't argue with Sonic 2, right? Well here is example of a combo-bounce (Something I'm very keen on in layouts. Look for them everywhere in old Sonic games!) that I'm positively sure was by design. Now, if this is the case, this does not stop you from exploring, getting all the rings and starposts and procuring emeralds, does it? And if I am wrong and this behaviour was not intentional, the fact that it is possible means that the "intended" gameplay doesn't prohibit such a feat.

In short, I proposed a simple alteration to the way scoring was managed, and it was shot down, despite the fact that it would not change the core gameplay in any way.

Thus ends my ranting about how we have to properly consider things.

[muteKi]

Well, as I noted somewhere talking about Sonic CD, I think that the best element of that game was that it heavily rewarded exploration, and even made the special stages unnecessary through it. I don't know HOW, but there need to be things hidden in the stages that aren't at all important to completing the game but can add some depth and replayability and force level designers to not make overly linear stages.