Liam Robertson: "if you want a Sonic Mania 2, you're going to have to be as vocal as possible"

The most critically successful Sonic game post '94 that's not Sonic Mania is an Unleashed level pack that refined the mechanics to make them more palatable to the average consumer. Sonic Mania is, in itself, the classic gameplay you'd expect with thousands of little improvements that add up to make for a substantial step up from most of the 2D titles that came before it. Maybe it isn't better than Sonic 3, but consider the fact that there was no Sonic game that was even worthy of being in that conversation for 25 years.

Perhaps if Sonic Team were more willing to compromise their creative ambitions and focus more on careful, laborious refinement Sonic would be in a better place. It wouldn't even matter where they decided to start. Sonic Adventure, Sonic Generations, and Sonic Lost World all had potential in their own ways.

...Nah, let's make an open world RPG instead, I guess? Whatever. As long as they stick with it this time they might be able to eek out something decent, I guess. Hopefully we're not talking about bringing back the boost in 2024.

 

And Forces!

 

I do find it funny that people who work in the industry are saying that we have to make our voices heard if we want a Mania sequel yet any theory or idea as to why SEGA isn't getting on it ASAP is put down as absurd automatically, when a game as successful as Mania not getting a sequel ASAP is something worth theorizing about when a lack of official explanation only points to negatives or aiming to different goals personally.

 

I can’t really parse most of the rest of your post but not every theory is getting “put down as absurd”, just the absurd ones.

 

I think people should just chill out and wait, the first Mania was a big success and Sonic Mania 2 will happen eventually, just not yet.

Their current effort is to make updated ports of classic games available on modern platforms, probably because mania reignited interest in classic Sonic gameplay. Obviously, the next step would be a brand new 2D title.

Remember, a dish served too often is not as tasty as it was before . Mania is special not only because it was made by talented people, but also because this gameplay style was laying dormant for over 20 years.

 

For me, the scenario doesn't really get any more clear cut. It's up to Iizuka and company to decide whether more Genesis Sonic games get made (either in-house, or bringing in another team to collaborate/be supervised); and if they aren't interested then that's where the conversation ends. No amount of pressure from people (or, regarding Whitehead and company, pitches of ideas) in or out of the fanbase can really change that, outside of probably getting some lipservice efforts.

As for the commentary of Mania not being a "real" sequel--that never was the point of that game anyway. Thanks to Sega's abandonment of the original gameplay and presentation for decades (barring one total butchering), it was frankly a wonder to have a new game that had faithful Genesis playstyle and aesthetics at all; at the time Mania was announced. The fact we got some new stuff on top of a good restoration of the gameplay (like the drop dash, Mighty/Ray, and some of its QoL additions) is just gravy.

With Mania's success in bringing the formula back to prominence established, a new G.Sonic game is where I would start talking about making the gameplay innovative. (And some of us have already been doing so for a while.)

 

Could You please explain a little bit more? I know that Dragon Quest had some soundtrack problems, but IIRC, the games are appearing outside of Japan?

As for what I wrote, of course - I could be horribly wrong, but it's unreal to me, that with such high Sales, Sega wouldn't make a sequel to Sonic Mania with Christian and others. I believe they are treating Sonic brand a bit more wisely, than say - in 2006, making less games, but better in terms of quality. That's why it's taking them so long to produce one.

Of course it's not a bad idea to let them know we are waiting and still interested in a sequel, or Sonic 5 for the matter (that's actually a very good point).

 

Mania did basically nothing to the classic formula but add a few new power-ups and the drop dash. I don't mean this as a critique--the core gameplay is excellent and the drop dash is an extremely good move that should be an omnipresent staple of Sonic's 2D moveset--but it really did not do much more besides that. It's main improvements besides that are the level design being a good mixture of 2 and 3&K with the focus of the former and the length of the latter (without the latter's tendency to become a bloated mess like in MGZ and SZ, seriously, how do people just give those and other way-too-goddamn-long zones like CNZ and LRZ a pass. The most annoyingly bloated zones in Mania even are the 3&K stages!).

I mean, if your sole reference is places like Sonic Retro, I guess

 

Because many us don't mind, or even prefer long levels. What you find tiring others may find satisfying. I don't get how anyone could stand the overlong borefests that were the dungeons in Zelda: Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword, and I know I've read an interview in which Zelda director Eiji Aonuma admitted feeling that dungeons had become too long by those games. And yet many Zelda fans consider those the best dungeons in the series.

 

what kind of insight even is this lmao. "Shout at company maybe they'll listen". you don't say, huh.

That aside, I got what I wanted with Mania. I'm not gonna go out of my way to campaign for Sega when they historically need to be dragged into a good idea kicking and screaming.

Literally every Sonic game until I die could be miserable and I'd still be content that Mania somehow managed to be a thing at all.

 

I can attest to this. I love being able to romp around in a massive level with no end in sight. The journey is just more rewarding than arriving at the destination for me. Like, I don't really enjoy Mirage Saloon act 2 cause it's over in like, 1:30. There's nothing to see lol. Bigger stages to me mean I can just jump around at my leisure and go sightseeing instead of worrying my experience will be unexpectedly cut short.

But maybe that's just me.

 

Long levels are fine. Marble Garden is both long and a confusing mess of rooms that look the same, copy-pasted obstacles, and a basic route so snaking that you feel like you're going in circles until you randomly come across the exit. I had S3&K Collection on PC as a kid and literally never got past Marble Garden because it is...too...damn...long...I mean sure I sucked at games too that is fair

Also the music sucks but frankly I think 3&K's music is honestly half excellent and half-exceedingly mediocre. Mania's OST is SO MUCH better, dear god it's nuts.

3&K tends to have this issue in its levels. One of the reasons Hydrocity Act 2 is so fondly remembered is because it's one of the five acts in the game that isn't a million miles long and a bloated mess. Mania got it right. The only times it didn't were, as I said, the 3&K levels which are insanely goddamn long and repetitive. FBZ barely scrapes by because the gimmicks are fun, Lava Reef is almost nothing but slow blocky platforming with almost zero flow. Just like the original LRZ!

I hope Mania doesn't go in that direction. CPZ2 is more how I'd like the level design to be: a stage so perfectly flowing that it's almost like doing a tony hawk combo, wherein you never really stop, but you aren't just mindlessly holding right down like Advance 2 or something. That's just my opinion though.

 

I see no reason why Sonic Mania 2 (or Sonic 5, or whatever the name will be) wouldn't be produced. If Sonic Team decided that Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic are two different entities (which is a bizarre move per si) that's because they intend to make more Classic Sonic games without messing up with the Modern Sonic continuity. The games will come, we just have to wait.

 

Don't mind me, just shamelessly self plugging...

 

Those all still subjective things tho. I don't mind any of the S3K levels, especially since I tend to play only 1-3 zones at a time nowadays. I don't do what some do of trying to beat 2d Sonic games in a single session. And I don't mind MGZ's "snaking" layout either since I know that I'm still making progress whether the current path is taking me left or right, as the layout isn't that labyrinthine -- it just happens to change direction at various points, fitting the level's theme. Sonic isn't like some platformers where you're always supposed to go in the same direction.

In fact I appreciate when they design the level layouts to match the zone theme, rather than using the same style for all. It keeps things fresh and prevents the theme from feeling like just decoration.

 

Most of the levels in Mania play themselves... I mean LRZ and MSZ1K are both amazing, and the Encore layouts do a lot to fix that problem in other levels, but you can get through most of the game by holding down, and you have to actively force yourself out of the automation if you want to explore anywhere.

I certainly wouldn't call the level design an improvement. For me Mania's main improvements are passive shield environment interaction and the special stages. Other than that (and I guess graphics/sound) pretty much everything else is a downgrade, with the main appeal just being the fact that it's the first official classic Sonic game we've had in a long time.

... we clearly want different things out of a Sonic game. CPZ2 is pretty much the epitome of "hold down and watch as the game plays itself", whereas I find LRZ has a ton of flow (both the original and even more so the Mania versions) that ask the player to actually play the game to get it instead of just offering it to them. In fact, on the occasions I go back and play Mania again I usually pick it up from LRZ and just do the last few levels.

 

I see it as MegaMan X / MegaMan scenario in 90's. Two different canons, vaguely tied together. Both universes having multiple releases.

Thought, Let's hope Sega doesn't pull the plug on Sonic - like Capcom did on poor Rockman.

 

I think Green Hill Zone (in Sonic 1 or Mania) is more fitting for that analogy. Rolling at the right time in certain places, bouncing from one enemy to another, jumping off of the right slopes, etc. lead to an incredible sense of flow. Green Hill Zone Act 1 and Chemical Plant Act 1 are incredibly fun to speedrun, such that they really do sorta feel like a flowing Tony Hawk combo when you pull off a highly optimized run, especially with the Drop Dash.

I agree with Digital Duck that Chemical Plant Act 2 is one of Mania's many "hold down to win" levels. I don't hate it, but it's certainly not one I go back to play in Time Attack (whether it's for fun or for a better record).

I think Marble Garden Zone fucking sucks, but only because of those spinning tops. Still can't believe they brought those back for Sky Sanctuary in Generations.

 

That would be pretty disappointing in my opinion. Why can’t they just make more 2D games in the current continuity? A certain mustachioed plumber has been doing it for decades…

Spoiler

Even Sonic used to do this as well before Mario returned to 2D (Advance and Rush *nudge*