Clearing a Misconception About Sonic Forces Dev Team

I do believe, that with time and resources, they can create a good, playable game. It's not like the team wants to deliver a bad title.

However, I don't believe, they will be given enough time and resources, at least that's how it was over last decade. As I've stated in 2022 topic, Sega probably rethinks their strategy. So who knows. We need to wait and see.

Anyway, thank You for this post. I was under the impression, that Forces was created mostly by newbies.

 

I think they are capable of creating good games because the team clearly has talent. Colors is a good game but unremarkable and while Lost World has many flaws, I also think it has some enjoyable aspects to it. There are levels in Lost World which are fun and if the whole game was like that it would probably be alright. I think Forces is probably the worst game they've worked on and is a major misstep and lack of ambition. Forces' team is a mixture of Colors and Lost World staff, with some Gens hangers on and a few new staff. So yeah, they clearly can make good gaming experiences, they jus tend to make games which are unremarkable and flawed.

So I don't really have much to say. I don't think they are completely hopeless and should all be fired or anything. I think development studios can learn from missteps and make something great if they have talent (the Hitman staff are a great example of that). It's just that Sonic Team often don't learn from their mistakes because when they do try to react to fan and critical feedback, they often interpret it in completely boneheaded ways.

I have no faith in them at this time if I'm being completely honest, since their track record has been poor lately. But if Sonic Rangers did end up being surprisingly good, I also wouldn't be absolutely shocked. It could be ambitious if it's not trying to just chase trends, which is at least better than Forces. Although I fear it is just chasing tends, but can't say for certain without seeing gameplay.

 

I agree that people are too negative about Sega and Sonic Team.

I don’t keep up with all the members or positions but I think people exaggerat the state of the franchise in recent years. Longer actually. I remember some of these complaints going around 2005.

I understand where the complaints come from. Questionable gameplay and seemingly scaled back games. I just do not think the series is in such shambles as others make it out. I just view it as everything goes through ups and downs.

I certainly do NOT agree the games have gotten worse over the last 15 years or whatever. Like I’ve said before I’ve enjoyed most of them even though I think some could have been better.

Ive been told on other boards I’m too optimistic or my standards are too low. I’ll admit when it comes to entertainment (movies, TV, games etc.) I tend to be more lenient but it’s hard to explain.

I can recognize flaws and differences in quality I just think a lot of things are not THAT horrible. For me it really depends what it is. I’m not going list every game and explain my reasoning for each one. It’s just hard to put into words.

I’m not saying quality control is not important I just don’t think a lot of these issues are ruining the series or Sonic’s reputation. I think that’s a notion mostly created by the fan base.

 

I know the question is directed at Laura, so forgive me for adding my 2 cents, but if the game has fun movement, fun level design, interesting and engaging mechanics, and maybe a fun story with decent stakes to it as icing on top, that would probably to a 90 on my opinion. If they continue to do it consistently, then we move into 180 territories.

To be honest this is also a major topic of discussion that's been plastered all across the boards in one way or another. Fair warning that this is a very hot, potentially volitile topic right now.

 

I'm personally of the opinion that Sonic Team itself is constantly in such an uncertain state that trying to make a real judgement of them as a collective developer is inherently flawed. Not to say there aren't obviously some people that have stayed there, as the original post shows, but any time someone says "Sonic Team are the WORST!" I have to wonder who they think they're talking about.

In terms of the games...I get pretty exasperated when people post doom and gloom nowadays, especially 06 comparisons. I think that 06 is terrible, probably still one of the worst Sonic games, but I think it was the succession of Shadow-06-Secret Rings that was such a perfect 3-hit combo of shittiness that put the series' reputation in the gutter, and we simply haven't seen anything even remotely close to as bad as I think those three games are in the decade and a half since. I often wonder if people who say things like "Rise of Lyric is worse than 06" or "Forces is worse than 06" have ever meaningfully attempted an 06 playthrough and just appreciated what a top-to-bottom trainwreck it is. Comparing even a bad game like Rise of Lyric to that feels like a compliment to one of the most miserable gaming experiences I've had.

...Which isn't to say I don't have problems, but it feels like since Unleashed, Sonic has been an interesting and usually somewhat-enjoyable series with some major problems, rather than a bad series with some shining spots of interest like it was before. Unleashed has its heart in the right place, but it's got too many boring chores even outside the werehog weighing it down. Colors is fun, but lacks a bit of substance. Generations is...basically the halfway point between those, having more of both substance and chores than Colors, but less than Unleashed. The alt-console versions of these three games are all not as good as the main console versions, but they're usually more focused and I want to see their content ported over to the main versions (which I maintain is the only reason to have ever treated an Unleashed PC port as more important than one of Colors).

Lost World is an interesting beast. It's certainly one of the more mechanically creative Sonic games, and has a lot of really great ideas, and *most* levels use its mechanics pretty well. It's also got the occasional boring level that really sucks. I think that it's a better foundation for other Sonic games to build off of than Unleashed conceptually (it's not a coincidence that all four boost games play more or less the same), but it's a little stiff and the engine itself is only good enough to run levels specifically built for it. Also, someone should port over the 3DS levels, but you have to change a lot of them because the 3DS version fucking suuuuuucks.

I guess I can't really talk about Sonic Boom since Sonic Team didn't make it, but it annoys me that lacking polish made Rise of Lyric worse-received, because Shattered Crystal is unbelievably boring and really got by just by not being the Wii U game, which I think is way more interesting to talk about. Fire and Ice, simply by adding a little more meat and subtracting padding, manages to ironically be the best of all these despite running on the worst one's engine.

Forces...eh. At this point, I get people's issues with the game. It's a little jank, a little bland and just as stiff as Lost World, but the uproar over this game is never going to not be overblown for me. It works. You can play it end to end, and sometimes it's fun, which makes it a hell of a lot better than 06 or Secret Rings. I'm not saying the game is great, but I just keep seeing this nostalgia for an era of Sonic that sucked because of some very subjective ideas about "passion" and "tone", things I don't think the games they're romanticizing handled well at all.

 

Well it's hard to put into words because I'm not a professional game developer. But on a basic level, they need to look at the most fun levels they have made in Colors, Gens, Lost World, Forces (that canyon stage), and try to make a whole game that matches that level of quality.

The problem with Forces was that it's made up almost entirely of the kind of shallow and simplistic levels which were the worst stages in Colors.

But I don't really have much more to say than that. I think Sonic Team are capable of making fun stages but they don't make good unified games. Whether that's a failure of leadership or just a lack of creativity in the team, it's hard to say without working there.

 

I don't mean to start a discussion about the ideals that the team is pursuing. What once worked has become inoperable and doesn't translate well into modern times. Plain and simple. You have to make an effort to find new and interesting ways for people to enjoy your products, or else you're doomed to failure. In other words, Sonic Team must strive to keep up the momentum. But that's not necessarily true. Sometimes you need to let go, even if it's just for a bit, and let the fans decide whether they like something or not.

I think the last time they did that was with Sonic Runners. But we all know how that story turned out…

 

Maybe they should take a break from Sonic? I mean it's not like they didn't before, besides NiGHTS (which was a very good game back in 1996) weren't Sonic Team responsible for Billy Hatcher and Phantasy Star Online?

Sometimes taking a break is good, it allows people to rethink things, get creative. There also must be other experienced people at Sega, wanting to give Sonic a shot - who could inject new ideas into the series.

It's like... Lost World became such a disaster, that Sonic Team is afraid of new ideas. I hope the new game is all about new and creative ideas. After all, Sonic Adventure and Sonic Unleashed were innovating back in the day - one gave us a formula for two great platforming games (yes, it's 2021 and I still think SA and SA2 were great) and the second one gave us boost formula - a fast, arcade gameplay style that is really satysfying.

 

I'm glad you made this thread purely for informative reasons and I agree that discussion for Sonic among dedicated fans could stand to have more nuance, but I don't think your thesis matches your evidence. I also think consumers don't really have to feel obligated to play soft-ball with products that are asking for their money.

The newbie narrative took off with Forces because it was a game that didn't display any of the talent Sonic Team put forth in any of their recent games. Drawing attention to the fact that everyone was actually on deck for it and it still turned out that way makes Forces and Sonic Team look worse, not better.

If it was just outside circumstances that made Forces the way it was...how do you expect them to do figuring out a new style, with the toll the pandemic is taking on the industry exactly? World class developers are struggling right now. How do you expect Sonic Team to do? This isn't the confidence booster you think it is.