"Multiple" new Sonic games planned for 2021

Think you're ignoring a lot of context; NSMBW outsold Galaxy because the game came bundled with the Wii console, and the Wii was an absolute hit with the casual audience. Galaxy and Galaxy 2 outsold every other 2D platformer that wasn't bundled with the Wii at the time, including Donkey Kong Country Returns, and Return to Dreamland.

Super Mario 3D World also came bundled with the Wii U console, and sold slightly more than NSMBU which also had a bundle, and 3D World outsold Tropical Freeze, and Yoshi Wooley World.

And Super Mario Odyssey has outsold Kirby Star Allies, Yoshi's Crafted World, and the Switch ports of NSMBU and Tropical Freeze as of this writing.


So if anything, it's reversed; with the exception of NSMBW, which as I said came bundled with the Wii to give it a boost, every 3D Mario platformer has outsold every 2D platformer on the same console.


So as I said, there's a higher expectation on 3D platformers than the 2D ones.

 

I sure didn't and Adventure 2 is literally 20 years old. How am I or anyone waiting for that game right now in the current day?

I love adventure 2 but come on.

 

I think Adventure was onto something with its mission mode, even if all the emblems didn't give you anything substantial. I think the only game to do collectibles right was Generations. You always got something for collecting something, and collecting lots of things had rewards beyond achievements. (The in-game music player is genius, so of course, Sonic Team got rid of it for Forces. I'd love to be able to tune out Classic Green Hill without having to pull up Spotify.)

For all of the issues of Secret Rings, one area I appreciated was its mission variety. You weren't just rushing from A to B, and I think some peoples preferences for that led to the Boost formulas' obsession with propelling the player constantly forward, definitely to a fault.

Before you type dinosaur eggs, yes, some were stinkers but I think that was more to do with the game's controls/level design than the mission objective itself. In a proper sonic level where you can freely explore, it could be better.

So my tentative wishlist of a sonic level would be
-2-4 minutes long (The happy balance between Forces and Heroes)
-has a decent amount of stuff to find for the explorers, but not hidden to an obsessive, masochistic degree like Crash 4. Stuff like abilities or costumes. (For Sonic, I should add, not the avatar.)
-Speaking of Crash 4, make full completion worth it. Those ending movies give off the same "I just wasted my life" energy as Mario Sunshine's postcard)
-re-use level layout with missions, with varied objective and their own collectibles.
-Maaybe these missions have a story purpose and aren't just "welp, we're here now". Maybe they're where other characters show up like Colours DS.

 

New Super Mario Bros. 2 outsold Super Mario 3D Land. New Super Mario Bros. outsold Super Mario 64 DS.

Obviously both 3D and 2D Mario games outsell Donkey Kong, Kirby and Yoshi, so that's neither here nor there.

"Which is probably why Sega feel pressured in making 3D games, since those are considered the standard nowadays and much more wider appeal than 2D games do."

I don't think this statement holds water, as far as platform games go. The market says otherwise. 3D is not the standard for platform games and both 2D and 3D platform games can and do sell well.

 

I dunno. Maybe it's been a while since I last played them. But unless you're speedrunning, I don't recall the levels being all that short; at least Sonic's stages, anyway. If we're talking the other characters, yeah, I definitely agree, but I think that was also a scenario of ST building levels primarily for Sonic and then trying to retrofit the other characters into the existing design. Tails is probably the possible exception of not having too-short stages, and that's mainly because he shares Sonic's levels. Even so, most of Tails' stages are races against Sonic, and his flight gives him the benefit to fly over a lot of the existing design.

I think the first thing that could be addressed (if we're using Sonic Adventure levels/gameplay as a template) I think would be to try and finally nail having 3D Sonic levels with multiple routes as in the Mega Drive titles. Not small shortcuts, actual distinct paths that diverge and eventually connect back together (unless you want to implement alternate exits--which is also a valid route). That I feel would definitely help the replay value in that sense. It would take some work, since besides effectively making two/three levels in one stage; you have to make more of an effort to properly separate the paths (since in both cases, you can't just build routes on top of each other like in the 2D titles). But I think with the right designers, it could be pulled off.

That aside. As previously mentioned, Adventure 1 already had missions that focused on other goals than reaching the end, but IIRC the emblems were more of a 100% completion / optional nature. I think taking a page from the mission structure from sandbox/collect-a-thon games could also help. Not to the extent of Crash 4 (or DK64) if we're talking extremes; but I'm thinking more in the vein of Mario Galaxy 2. Where it had more linear levels than Galaxy 1 and the proper sandbox games; but each level still had two/three additional missions besides the standard linear platforming goal. For missions that didn't change the rules for a normal playthrough (like adding a time limit or playing with only one hit point), Galaxy 2 had some areas that branched off into the alternate missions if the player chose to check those out.

 

Mario is the market, 3D Mario games outsell their 2D counterparts on average. None of those 2D games you mentioned are even in the top 10 of their respective consoles.

I never said 2D platform games don't sell well at all, I said that they are not the mainstream appeal and the sales reflect that. Once again, Odyssey has outsold every other 2D platforming game on the Switch right now. The fact that its Mario is besides the point. If you were correct in saying that the market is about 2D games, those games would be among the best selling on the console, but they are not.


Regardless, you've managed to detract from the whole point I was making; Sonic needs to sell 3D games as much as he needs to sell 2D ones, and the sheer demand for a "Full 3D game" from some sects of the fanbase reflects that.

 

You're not- just like how the fans who got mania weren't waiting for a game that already came out 26 years before. We don't want adventure 2 again. Those of us who want adventure 2 have multiple ways to enjoy it here and now. What this 1/3 of the fanbase wants is the spirit of those games- when sonic team put their best foot forward and actually tried their best to make new and exciting experiences, instead of tarnishing the glowing legacy of the genesis days by turning retro sonic into a tired old crutch for sales boosting.

Mind you, I like generations and I love mania. Even if we got "Sonic generations 2 mania & knuckles" (with green hill from sonic 1, green hill from sonic 1 8-bit, green hill from sonic drift, green hill from sonic blast, green hill from SA2, green hill from sonic battle, green hill from sonic generations, green hill from sonic dash, and green hill from sonic forces (with classic sonic- now cuter and chubbier than ever as the only character in the entire game (outside aforementioned knuckles cameo))), I'd still absolutely soak it up, cause there's just something about this bleu boi that I can't shake off and just want more of.

But given the choice, I wouldn't want more generations or more mania. And I'm not waiting on a game that already released. I want something new and fresh, which is what the adventure games were all about. Remember how they actually traveled the world to take pictures and get inspiration for SA1? Gimme more of that. Passion and ambition.

Actually, I think you're right. Generations and mania are what's getting fans to stick around. Cause it's a 2:1 ratio of people who only care about "the good ol' days" and relying on what worked in the past, vs people who want to apply those philosophies with new ambition and love into what could work now. In other words, the people who aren't afraid of change and want to try new things. There's a brave new world out there.

Ultimately, I think those thoughts bring me back to the original purpose of this thread. The 30th anniversary. If what we've seen is any indication, it seems like sega is fully acknowledging Sonic's entire legacy. And not just the parts we selectively choose to remember. I pray that this big new game they're supposedly spending extra time on is radically removed from anything we've seen so far. For better or worse. I think we need a good shake up.

Now everyone can feel free to scream at me or something. I just had fun writing this tbh. It's good mental exercise. :D

 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL118E6D4CD629F46A

Unless you're deliberately going out of your way to explore the stages, none except the last three levels are even 3 minutes long. If you took out the other playable characters, Sonic Adventure would be an incredibly short game.

I could only see this happening if they significantly shortened the amount of stages; Sonic Adventure had eleven stages, so in order to properly flesh them out like you said, they'd have to probably cut half of those altogether.

 

If there is a 2D game I hope it takes some inspiration from Classic Sonic's level design in Generations.

I loved that some levels were what we expect from the standard Sonic 2D experience.

But then there was stuff like City Escape where the truck is chasing you and altering the level around you. I want more stuff like that in a 2D Sonic game.

There was a lot of stuff in them (like the sign post in Crisis City flying away, the boulder chase in Seaside Hill etc etc) that was a breath of fresh air.

I know the physics and level design were not like those in the Mega Drive games, but I still think those levels in Generations can stand next to them (and Mania) in terms of quality.

 

You're wrong on this.

You said 3D is the standard for platformers. This is incorrect. There are more 2D platformers these days than 3D. Therefore 3D platformers are not the standard. Of the few 3D platformers that are still around, a few have performed exceptionally well - namely Mario Odyssey and the Crash and Spyro trilogies. This is a very recent resurgence of the 3D platformer, but unlike the mid-90s, it hasn't been to the detriment of the 2D platformer. For the past 13 years or so the platform game genre has leaned heavily towards 2D. To posit that 3D platformers are "more mainstream" than 2D platformers ignores over a decade of trends.

The Sonic series itself is a part of this trend, the moment 2D platformers started taking off again, the "3D" Sonic games started incorporating increasingly more 2D gameplay. The mistake was that each game never fully committed to one or the other.

 

I was speaking in general about games as a whole, you decided to make this about platformers.

And as I said, none of the 2D platformers released in that time frame have sold anywhere near as well as the 3D platformers, nor do they recieve the same level of promotion or advertising.

I don't know why you're being so stubborn about this; it feels like you have an issue with the fact that 3D platformers might perform better than 2D ones and trying to spin logic to refute that.'

Like this is so far past the point I was even trying to make.

 

I only played Spyro relatively recently when it came out on Switch and whilst I only heart the first game of the trilogy before putting it down, yeah I can see where you're coming from. Those segments wherein you charge around ramps and slopes are great (provided you actually know where you need to go next, cause there's some real 90s 3D level design going on sometimes).

Tell you where I also got a similar feeling though; Lost World Wii U. The spindash in that game is more or less just a retooled boost, but on the one occasion that they use it right, it's bliss. The spindash is much slower that the boost, but it's also not executed with a single button press, doesn't direct you to constantly use it and you still have relatively high control over Sonic's directional movement with it. It feels extra fast relative the rest of Lost World, whereas the boost its basically you standard speed in those games.

So that feeling... Desert Ruins 1 has all these ramps in the outdoors areas. Through strategic use of the ramps and mid-air double-jumps, you can blast through these sections and make it to the end in record time. It you only use one jump in mid air, Sonic will continue the spindash when he lands with a satisfying rev. It feels fast, and it feels great. I'm definitely all for seeing more such level design elements. Some of the aforementioned fan games in this thread attempt this and do a better job of it than Lost World in many regards. Where Lost World comes out on top though is that the disparity between top speed and regular speed isn't so vast that tge two can't mix.

Also just a note that Lost World typically gets its level design and spindash use completely wrong. You can technically get the same flow from Windy Hill 1 and the 3D part of Windy Hill 4, but it requires intricate prior knowledge of the level so that you can avoid all the (sometimes invisible) boosters and springs. Desert Ruins 1 is just an exception.

And just on the subject of loops... Loops are one of the core identifying visual elements of Sonic games. They don't need to be in every level (and shouldn't be for the sake of variety), but they are kind of a necessity if you ask me. You think Sonic, you think running through loops. They've got to be sprinkled through the level selection. I like when they aren't preceded with boosters/automation because there's nothing more jarring to me than sudden, jolting changes in Sonic's velocity.

 

Sonic is a platformer. It's not competing with The Last of Us or GTA. If it was, then it would have to be 3D. But it's not, it's competing with other platformers, a genre that has leaned heavily towards 2D for over a decade now, with a very recent resurgence of 3D.

New Super Mario Bros., New Super Mario Bros. Wii and New Super Mario Bros. 2 all outsold their system's 3D Marios. New Super Mario Bros. U sold almost as well as Super Mario 3D World.

In the platform game genre, 3D has been the minority for over a decade now. Outside of Mario, all the major platform IP that have dabbled in both went exclusively 2D - Mega Man, Donkey Kong, Rayman, Kirby, Oddworld, Yoshi. The indie darlings of the platform genre, several of which became big hits, were all 2D - Braid, Fez, Super Meat Boy, Shovel Knight, Axiom Verge, Shantae, Celeste, Ori etc.

In all that time, Sega could very easily have released a tentpole HD 2D Sonic game. Instead they released several HD 2D Sonic games masquerading as 3D Sonic games, not fully committing to the strengths of either.

 

I dunno, I don’t believe it should be that resource-consuming to make expanded versions of Adventure 1 stages in 2021, even for just one route.

Anyone who can compare and observe the sizing/scale of video game stages is free to step in and correct me if I’m wrong for the following. But I’d honestly say that a fair amount of sandbox stages for modern platformers, as well as the demo levels we get for certain Sonic fangames, are just as big if not bigger than the levels from the original Adventure, even with slower characters depending on the project. I think this is doubly true in that some of the fan projects allow Sonic to go much faster than he ever could in the first Adventure, and a fair amount of Adventure stages are broken up into different segments/“Acts” instead of being one long stage anyway.

But I’ll also be blunt and state if the issue here is that Sonic’s speed in the original Adventure would be too fast to build levels of a normal length; I’d be much more receptive towards compromising on the speed than compromising on the stages. I’ve personally long past the point of needing Sonic to be blisteringly fast in order to have fun with a traditional Sonic platformer, especially when we have Sonic gameplay (Rush/Boost) that is entirely built on that type of design philosophy.

 

I don't think Sonic would necessarily need to be any faster than Cat Toad in the Switch version of Super Mario 3D World. It would allow for denser and less corridor based level design.

 

Ya Toad is fast enough for Sonic, just replace the more static speeds with momentum like the old games.

 

The thing is, we perceive Sonic's speed relative to how many objects, or how much of the world, he passes in a given unit of time. Even if ex: Adventure's Sonic is a LOT slower than Unleashed's Sonic, Adventure's Sonic still feels fast because you can cross from one side of Station Square to the other in mere seconds, you watch palm trees pass by you as you run, etc. I think the classic games benefit from having detailed parallax backgrounds, which show you "hey, look at all the mountains you're zoomin by".

Another thing that I think makes Sonic feel fast is variability. Being able to fly by the world around you, but also being able to control that speed, and creating ways for the player to go even faster if they do X thing just right.

Also, idk if anyone else relates to this, but part of what made Unleashed feel so fast and so satisfying to me was the sound design and effects of the boost. The moment you boost there's this satisfying boom, accompanied by some kind of warping effect (?), and you're suddenly going 300 billion mph. Not only did it feel good, it was also just stylish as hell.

Needless to say, I think Sonic could be Cat Toad speed and still feel plenty satisfying, at least imo. TBH Lost World felt jarring to me because Sonic looks like he's going fast, but you're passing somewhat slowly over this giant tubelike landscape (excluding mach segments). It also felt to me like having 2 speed "settings" didn't help, but then again 2D Mario games have a walk and run "setting", and those games can still feel pretty exhilarating when you get into a groove. Maybe giving the player the feeling of going fast is just as important as the actual speed of the character relative to their world. Then again, you can still have a character that's super-busted-fast if you can create enough world for them to get through.

I learned how to use italics in this post.

 

Also including the dial sounds the game makes, the extremely short QTEs, as well as how it calculates your speed when you run past a checkpoint...

I'll confidently say any day that unleashed is hands down the fastest sonic game to date. I'd love to hear people's thoughts, but that's not the purpose of this thread lol.

 

I'm seeing people bring up Crash and Spyro a lot, as if

1.) the level design for both those series wasn't done ahead of time verbatim with the games they remake, to the point that the N-Sane Trilogy is nigh unplayable to anyone who hates slipping off of edges they could get with their eyes closed in the original games;

2.) Crash hasn't been derided since the first release for basically being 2D anyway.

And of these two series, only Crash has gotten a new game after the remakes were released...aka, the more 2D and less mini-gamey of the two series, not the more open one. What does that say about the current platforming scene I wonder.