"Multiple" new Sonic games planned for 2021

Can't believe you'd call me out like this, it's so upsetting
lol

To be honest, I'm so excited to hear what they've actually been cooking up. Like, I'm cautious, but at the same time, YOOOO, possibly multiple games? One of them has to be good, surely? So, yeah, exciting, and I can't wait! Hoping it's sooner rather than later, March can't come soon enough lol

 

You know, amidst all of the misfires in this series, its hard for me to remember that I DO like it. Even something like Forces could have been good with more care put behind it, and wasn't inherently bad. Its just that when the series underperforms, when you know it can do better, its incredibly infuriating.

 

As Josh said, this isn't really true for platform games anymore, and hasn't been for a long time. Even the "3D" Sonic platformers have been largely 2D since 2008.

Whether the rumours turn out to be true or not, the 3D games being 100% 3D and the 2D games being 100% 2D is absolutely the approach Sega should take going forward. There's no good reason a 2D Sonic game couldn't be a major home console release, same as Kirby, Mega Man, Yoshi, Donkey Kong etc.

 

What isn't true for platform games anymore? Because 2D platformers are generally seen as genre throwbacks and never really advertised as big, AAA titles in the same way 3D games are. And then there's outcry of fans who have been very vocal about the fact that the games are leaning too heavily on being 2D.

Its exactly as I said; Sonic has widespread and mainstream appeal, and as such, people expect that big, AAA 3D game budget.

 

I'll give the 3D Sonic fangames are a fair shake for @Frostav because I can see where he's coming from and I do think he brings valuable discussion despite his sometimes over the top tone. Not like I've ever been over the top in my life

Let's start with Sonic GT, which I has a lot more issues with than Utopia. I really do want to like it. When you watch people speedrunning through the levels on Youtube the game looks absolutely badass. But I just find it very difficult to know where you are going. When you are going in a straight direction and the map is clearly presented it feels very nice to play, zipping forward really quickly and not breaking your momentum. But when you have to change direction at a cross-paths or go vertically it gets very confusing knowing where you are supposed to go. I managed to complete Seaside Hill despite having no idea where the fuck I was going. I had to give up on Hill Top because I kept going the wrong way running up hills, running down them, not knowing how to get back up. I feel it plays like a more freeform version of Boost, but while the Boost gives you a linear, more automated experience, GT just leaves everything to you and doesn't guide you at all. Maybe you don't experience this, but I do. And I find the controls, like Boost, aren't good for platforming. It would be a lot more enjoyable if the levels were stripped back much more and streamlined, the game was much clearer in where you are supposed to go, and it leaned more into its full speed antics than platforming. But that kind of defeats the point of why people like it (massive open levels) so it's a bit of a dilemma.

I will say that I respect Sonic GT for at least designing levels and not being a tech-demo. So kudos for that.

I think Sonic Utopia is much more refined in what it tries to do although I agree with others that it has that weird aesthetic of a tiny Sonic in a massive environment. Badniks are three times Sonic's size and the moving platforms are massive. It's a problem with the game trying to translate 2D Sonic literally in 3D, so it provides tons of margin for error in making jumps and landings. Like I said, it sounds fun in theory to go speeding up ramps and flying across the stage, but in reality it just trivialises the game. I know that the Classics were sometimes guilty of this, but they could at least put walls and stop you exploiting it. Can't do that in 3D. And other aspects of the game's attempts to literally translate 2D Sonic, such as manual loops and corkscrews, just feel completely off to me. I go careering off them all the time. At least Sonic Adventure and the Boost games put railings and stuff down. In short, Sonic Utopia is a good literal translation of 2D Sonic into 3D, but I don't think that's the direction the series can go into. Like all things translation, it requires some localisation and adaption.

I actually think that by far the most impressive 3D fan projects are Sonic Infinity and Sonic Hero Project in that they are both trying to provide quality of life improvements to the Boost Engine, either with new playable characters or smoother animations. I think both are very good at introducing what they do to the table, but both are much more subtle in approach and more reigned-in. Not many people are clamouring for Boost but marginally superior. Although maybe they should be?

Adventure and Boost both have problems but I think they are more refined in what they aim to do than Sonic GT and I just think Sonic Utopia is a wrong-headed approach to the game. I know that Sonic GT has improved a lot since the last few years. It certainly deserves praise for being far superior than the likes of Sonic World. But I don't think it's there yet.

 

I don't think that's how I'd describe this.

 

"3D games" is too broad a category. I'm strictly talking about 2D platformers and 3D platformers. In the past decade or so there have been more 2D platformers than 3D platformers. It's only recently that 3D platformers have made a resurgence, thanks to the Crash and Spyro remakes, Yooka-Laylee and so on - which are themselves very much nostalgic throwback games.

The switching between 2D and 3D compromises both parts of the game. That's what I'm saying. They should be separate games.

I don't think that's true. I think a 2D Sonic game can be just as successful as a 3D one. Sonic Colours Wii could have been completely 2D and have been better for it. Sonic Lost World could have been completely 3D and better for it.

 

I'm not so sure people "expect" that big AAA 3D game budget with regards to Sonic, but maybe that's because I imagine a lot of Sonic's current fanbase are kids who got into him fairly recently - and I tend to imagine people complaining about graphical fidelity constantly to be jaded adults, like in the Pokemon fandom. Content maybe, but I have the suspicion that younger gamers also like to play the same games over and over, so even having some replay value would put Sonic up a long way. Replay value, like, say...a chao garden?

 

Trying to make an open level have a single “point B” kinda just leaves levels feeling messy. I prefer the idea of a playground or two to run around aimlessly in, and that’s part of why I like the idea of hubs / overworlds in Sonic. Give the player a Tony Hawk like environment to stunt freely, interact with NPCs and do side missions with non linear objectives, between main levels.

Also yeaaaahhh Project Hero’s got me iffy too. It’s claiming to be a WIP test level with its new footage, but Sonic’s extremely high speed is (as usual for these games) informing some really stretched out, super scaled level design. Not too big on that..

 

I only say that because because the platforming genre in general isn't as popular as it used to be; the genre itself is generally considered a nostalgic throwback, with sole exceptions being Mario & Sonic, and both of their respective series aren't anywhere near as popular as they used to be.

But because of their iconic status, they both have maintained public relevance. But on the average, neither Nintendo or Sega really advertise their 2D games anywhere near as heavily as their 3D ones.

You remember the whole marketing push Nintendo gave for Mario Odyssey? Do you recall them ever doing anything like that with their 2D titles?

The point I was making is that because of its status as a long running, cash cow franchise, the expectations for Sonic to make those large 3D titles is always going to be large, even if its not really necessarily practical.

 

I was thinking of the old Boost version with Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles.

I didn"t know they radically changed direction. I think that clip actually looks considerably worse.

 

Slowpoke post on the topic of loops. I hate to say it, but zero automated loops are just not worth it. From a technical standpoint it should be possible to enter a loop from different angles. But what if you mess up? You would instantly need to reposition and try again, even if you flew off the track. Bummer. What could be fun though would be to have a little QTE that only occurs when you reach a certain speed and lets you jump off mid-loop, just like in the classics. It's just... why would Sonic do that?

Automation is not the problem as long as it feels right. *looks at Classic Sonic*

 

Simple solution: multiple "point Bs". Like Shadow's progression but instead of missions, which goal you reach determines which level you go to.

Railings. Not automated, but keeps you from being flung who-knows-where.

 

Or dash pads, just maybe not RIGHT IN FRONT of every loop de loop.

 

That works too. Then you can attempt it on your own, or go back if you need/want the help. Choice and all that.

 

The world of Sonic and its characters are so interesting that I can't abandon it completely even when I'm not happy with the direction of the franchise.

They succeeded in making a fanbase that's dedicated and will stick with him through some really rough patches because because know it's ultimately worth it for the Generations and Mania's and whatever else they have up their sleeve.

 

I feel like the issue skipping loops entirely would still be an issue without the automation; in the 2D games, you don't really have a choice to avoid them, but in 3D, what's stopping the player from just hopping in one side and out the other and just skipping the loop entirely?


I'm kind of two minds; I love the feeling of open-endedness of Sonic Adventure, and the ability to manipulate the level in various ways to just cheese the fuck out of it. But at the same time, Sonic Adventure's levels are SHORT, incredibly short. You can beat most of them in 2-3 minutes, so the question now becomes what else is there to do?

I'm incredibly hesitant to go the Crash 4 route and just litter the game with a bunch of collectibles, since Crash 4 is absolutely obnoxious with the amount of collectibles it has, but at the same time ti does encourage repeat playthroughs like I'd expect from Sonic.


So the big problem is justifying the size and length of these levels.

 

Yep, we've got another utopia on our hands. The stage is too f***ing big. When you move that far, that fast, it ruins any incentive to slow down and check out the whole stage cause you just wanna fly around everywhere.

Yeah, generations and mania are not even close to why I'm a dedicated fan who sticks around with the blue blur, and I'm sure the same applies to many other people as well. What about the fans who stick around for the adventure or adventure 2s? Or the fans who stick around for the characters or stories? Or the fans who stick around for the modding community? Or the fans who are solely here for the genesis classics alone and nothing more?

To assume that classic sonic focused material alone is the reason why people are still here is a disservice to a humongous sector of the fanbase and part of the reason why we're in here having this long winded discussion in the first place. Not everyone is sticking with sonic for the same thing. While I enjoyed mania and feel it is one of the best games in the series, I stick with sonic for the hope that someday we'll once again get something that is the complete antithesis to this supposed holy grail.

I know you probably didn't mean anything by it, but I think quite a few people in here are going to get butthurt about it. :/

 

Sonic isn't going to attract the Call of Duty, The Last of Us or FIFA audiences. It's going to attract the audience for colourful platform games. That audience has proven to be receptive to home console 2D platformers since New Super Mario Bros. Wii outsold Super Mario Galaxy.

As far as Nintendo goes, with Mario they alternate between 2D games and 3D games. Kirby, Yoshi and Donkey Kong have been 2D affairs for many years now.

We're long past the PS1/PS2 era when 3D platformers greatly outsold 2D platformers. They're on a more equal footing now in terms of sales viability, but with 2D platformers outnumbering 3D platformers.