"Multiple" new Sonic games planned for 2021

Boost gameplay is my favorite style in the series, and it's funny because the reasons people have explained why they don't like it is precisely why I do like it. In order to do well in boost stages you need to really build that muscle memory and twitch reflexes. My love of rhythm games may influence my love of boost games because they are both all about pressing the right buttons in the right order at the right time. It just feels really good when you pull it off flawlessly.

On the topic of Sonic Colors, I loved it when it first came out and I still love it (though I haven't replayed it in a long time, due to it being exclusively on the Wii and no other system). My opinions on Sonic games are pretty consistent, though I feel like the constant flip-flopping of the fanbase are due to different fans voicing their opinions at different time periods and not people just radically changing their minds about them.

I don't just love the boost games btw, I love every type of game if it's executed well. I don't really care what "style" of game the next one will be, but if it has a lot of love and care put into it then I'm sure I'll love it.

 

I think Unleashed and Generations' day time stages are the most realized of any of Sonic's 3D outings. They're extremely fun and exciting to play, arcadey in concept, and have a reflex-based difficulty curve that I really appreciate. They're dope; especially Unleashed's. But I also think there's not much more you can do with it than what they've given us already.

The Adventure formula, a spin on the classic formula in itself, allows for a lot more free movement and variation on it's mechanics while still playing the same, and that's why I think it's the best path forward. Playing a slower paced area in a Boost game feels almost like a punishment, but in SA1/2 feels just as natural or fun to control as a faster-paced area does, and allowing for that more varying pace gives the game design more room to play with other characters' movesets.

All this, and I've started to believe over the past several years that boost level design is starting to take it's toll on game development. Levels are extremely detailed and span on for miles and miles, but they're often blistered through in seconds (and in Forces case, without much of any gameplay to give), meaning there's little to make the work put in worth it (hence reliance on Werehog, classic Sonic, asset reusage ala Colors, or the Avatar). Sonic games have always had padding issues since the jump to 3D, but I feel like the gameplay style given has only accentuated it. Making a game that doesn't need to go that fast all the time would probably help them make striking environments last much longer than otherwise.

That said will I take another boost game? Yeah, of course. It's fun. But IDK how much more that gameplay style could really wow me. They'd need to go fucking WILD on the production values to make it pop, but I kinda doubt Sega has that sort of money for Sonic anymore.

 

Oh certainly, if moving away from the Boost formula is what's best for the series then by all means. I do agree that Boost gameplay takes a ton of resources, and it's probably not as worth it to create something like that when we could get a lot more with something like the Adventure formula. That's just the sad reality of it.

(However, mods of Generations have shown us that there is still so much you can do with the Boost formula that I don't think moving away from it is the only correct choice.)

 

Unironically love how these threads always have multiple convos at once :P

1. Sonic Colors is my favorite 3D Sonic game but admittedly not really for its 3D sections lol. It was definitely what the franchise needed at the time: continuing Unleashed's step away from melodramatic plots and framing the game's gimmick as colorful power-ups instead of new characters or edgier forms. I can see why it's gotten more criticism in recent times because it doesn't play much like a Sonic game and it started some of the trends that would cheese people off in later games (Wisp, Pontac/Graff etc)

2. Frostav basically sums up my beef with the boost formula. Sonic used to have both the spectacle and the gameplay, but boost is pretty much just the spectacle.

3. The leaked promo art indicates we're getting some kind of return to the Adventure era. I don't know if it'll be a remake...I don't want one though, I think SA1/2 are best taken as fun & interesting relics of the late 90s. But a brand new game with that Adventure *feel* to it would be really nice.

4. Someone remarked on the possibility of there being a Generations 2 with three Sonics, Adventure Sonic as the third. Wasn't that the original plan for the first one? Ryan Drummond did audition for the game and TSSZ does make that claim, but the site is shut down...

 

I feel the contention here is what people value in a Sonic game, namely the speed or the platforming.

People who don't care for boost call it out for being shallow spectacle with no substance (I disagree, but that's neither here or there) and high resource intensive.

People who like Boost like it for those same exact reasons, namely in mastering the stage layout and actually making Sonic feel like a powerhouse.


I'm basically of the second opinion that Boost gameplay is the most "Sonic" like in terms of gameplay; its the only time Sonic feels as powerful as he's generally said to be, and I think that's amazing. And I think there's plenty of substance in trying to master each stage and get the best possible time. The fact that the Unleashed project exists, and there being so many mods for the game just dispels any notion that there's nothing you can do with it. It's gonna be ten years old this year, and its STILL getting mods. A game like that cannot be labelled shallow, otherwise people would have just moved on from it already.

Not that I don't understand Frostav's complaints about the style being shallow, I just don't agree with them. I personally think people overstate how non-linear the Classics are in this case, especially since I recently replayed through all of them. In general, the goal of each game is to get to the end, and you only get one to three ways to do it. And in most cases, especially in Sonic 1, the platforming is as bog standard as it gets, with only one or two levels really showing off what Sonic can do. Sonic 2 is much better about this, but the later levels just kind of destroy its momentum and CD is just straight up an aberration in that the entire game is focused on exploration if you want the best ending.


Now if you put more value on Sonic being a platformer over his speed, then I'm not decry people for that. I just think the notion that the Classics and the Adventure games being these beacons of non-linearity is a bit overstated when they all relied on heavy spectacle almost to the same degree as people decry the Boost games for. Thinks like the Eggman bomb ship in Angel Island Act 2, that first tunnel that launches you into the air in Green Hill Act 1, and just Stardust Speedway in general are heavily based on said spectacle.

Sonic is built on some level of spectacle whether we wanna admit it or not. Calling the boost games "Boost 2 win" is just as erroneous as saying the Classics are "Hold right 2 win" and shows that people simply don't understand the nuance of each style of gameplay.

 

Oh, I do get people's mentality. I remember all the praise Colors got back in the day for being "Unleashed without the Werehog". That concept got me hyped for the game back then. The appeal is obvious... in theory. But when I actually played it, it felt more like "Unleashed's boost gameplay... except the levels and controls were stripped down and an intrusive powerup system (Wisps) was added".

I guess what I mean is that I don't personally get how people can overlook all the regressions. I didn't like the Werehog either, but did people really find him so offensive that they would rather see the game's good parts get dumbed down (IMO) than having to play as him? That just strikes me like saying that Heroes is better than SA2 just because all its levels are speed-oriented. Sure, most people disliked the mech and treasure hunting stages in SA2, but not so much that they would rather play Heroes over SA2 just so that they don't have to put up with them.

 

People were really tired of gimmicky alternate playstyles at that point, so Colors NOT having that was wildy accepted because of it. The stripped down level design complaints only came later.

And like, you do have people who legitimately prefer having more platforming over speed in Sonic games, as paradoxical as that sounds. The expectations of platforming is that they follow in Mario's footsteps.

 

This thread is very tiring, it's like having those "bashing/praising this game" again but all in one plus the usual playstyle fights. Boost is very resource consuming? Give it Minecraft graphics. Control are shit? Give the game actual controls (valid for almost any game in the franchise). This/that thing doesn't work? Improve it, even the rubber band from Chaotix could be good if given a wise try. I'm ok with everything that let's the player play and enjoy the ride, but of course, I will be more nitpicky if I'm the player who buys the game because I paid, and the issue with Sonic always changing playstyle is how random seem to be the changes, so I may have paid for something I didn't expect or find discouraging no new release is something I want to buy. I want Sonic Shuffle 2, in all honesty (among other things, of course).

 

Continuing on from what I said: the thing about Boost and the impressive speed it gives you is that I've played games/fangames wherein you get to do that...but with full control. Sonic GT and SPark the Electric Jester 2 are the main things I'm talking about here. You can go insanely fast in those games, but you never feel like you're locked into a rigid set of actions.

And no, they're not perfect, but they're also literally both made by one guy each. Their levels can sometimes be a bit bare and big, but honestly, the freedom they give you is immense and satisfying while still forcing you to overcome obstacles.

Spark 2 has an entire level about going upwards. You start on flat ground but in a few seconds begin ascending this tower. That's the whole level. You move upwards on slopes and need to maintain speed while running vertically to rise. Titanic Tower has issues--namely if you fall you can lose a lot of progress because obviously the level doesn't have killplanes/death pits--but it's such a cool idea that only Sonic really would do. You'd never see a Mario level like this because Mario isn't about momentum and physics. Sure, there are 3D Mario levels that are about going from a low place to a high place--in fact, a ton of them are--but they're about winding around and jumping up methodically; not blasting up loops and vertical slopes, using your speed to fight gravity.



Now imagine that but with the full backing of a devteam. That's what I want 3D Sonic to be. Levels that emphasize momentum and physics. Levels with gimmicks that make them novel and unique.

You see, the funny thing is I do agree that going fast is fun and blasting past stuff is fun. I just feel the boost games don't feel like I can do stuff with my speed. That's why I can play something like Sonic GT and have a blast, because the physics let me just fuck around. If I go fast, I can go "hey, can I get there in a single jump?" or "I wonder what happens if I curl into a ball and do this..."

You can go fast in Boost games. But you can't do anything with it than follow the path(s) the designers set. Every boost game could be entirely 2D and nothing would change. 3 dimensions, and you're ultimately just following a checklist the designers set. All this speed, and nothing to do with it.

And if I want to just go down a path the designers set for me really fast, I'd play a racing game. Racing games are actually favorite genre of video game! All the good ones also give you way more control than boost games and don't feel like a string of QTE! People are right: the Boost games feel like racing games trying to be platformers, except Trackmania already exists and did that better than the Boost games, lol?

You know 3D Mario, right? Ya know how Nintendo intentionally went away from the linear design of 2D Mario and emphasized exploration in SM64, because the new dimension made it exciting and interesting? While I would like 3D Sonic to ultimately be "start Here, get to There", I want it to be playful. I want to use Sonic's physics in levels that make me want to playfully see where I can go, what I can do. Can I get on top of that? Can I jump this far if I curl at the right slope and leap off another one? I want to finish the story mode, and then go back in time attack not to speedrun, but just to mess around and see what I can do. Much like how 3D Mario changed to suit the new dimension, I think 3D Sonic should. It should be about not merely just "the classics in 3D", but taking their elements such as their physics, and then cranking that up.

Or put simply: my ideal 3D Sonic level would be a linear level that nonetheless has some room to move (not open world, mind you) around and secrets to find and cool stuff to just find. Stuff that requires either a keen eye or proper physics utilization. Stuff like the Labyrinth Zone secret in Sonic Utopia.

I may be an Adventure diehard, but I don't want SEGA to just copy those two games. They had immense limitations borne of their target hardware. We have machines literally like 50 times as powerful as the Dreamcast. I don't want Sonic to just be a dreamcast game in 4K. We can go beyond that. Crash 4 didn't just blindly adhere to the same limitations as the PS1 games it was following up upon, it does things they straight up couldn't do. Sonic should be the same.

And it's possible. I know it's possible. Fans have been able to imperfectly touch upon the idea. SEGA has the funds to polish it fully and sand away all the issues these 3D fangames have and amplify their good aspects. It can be done.

But it probably won't

That's just how I feel, regardless. Others may feel different. If your response to this btw is just gonna be "but those fangames aren't good" then please don't even reply because I'm talking about their potential and a multi-billion dollar company with who is probably the second most well-known video game character ever can do it better if they actually put their minds to it. I do not want Sonic to be just "Mario/Crash but fast". Because that's what the boost games are. They're "Standard 3D Platformer but Fast (and with 2D padding)" and Sonic can be more than that. The 2D games were more than just "Mario but fast", it's about time the 3D games started being more than that too.

TL;DR: 3D Sonic should be a proper expansion upon what makes 2D Sonic work combined with the inherent advantages 3D gives you and not just a mindless shallow copy of them or a mindless copy of two Dreamcast games (though those games would serve well as a starting point).

IMO.

 

There's some irony in your claim that "Boost games don't let me do stuff with my speed" when there's an entire community dedicated to breaking the game in half in how to speedrun it.

https://twitter.com/DarkGravityFlam/status/1357904697668075520?s=20


I don't see what's happening in this tweet is any different from that video with Spark The Electric Jester, if anything they both follow the same basic concept of using Sonic's speed and physics to your advantage.

More than that, there's tons of alternate paths to take in Empire City, and Eggmanland.







It sounds to me like you guys just did one playthrough of these games and then just put the game down and judged it from there. That's the worst possible way of playing Sonic games because there's no way you're gonna be able to discover all of this stuff you can do off one playthrough.

 

Both are good! Boost is a potent, reliable and an easy crowd-pleaser at this point, but a return in a more Adventure-esque direction could prove to be a very fruitful and much needed refreshment.

Because let's be real: to say Sonic has rested too much on it's laurels the past decade would be a severe understatement. A fresh step that reads "let me play as other characters" or "let me Spin Dash in 3D again" sounds good to me.

 

I agree. All I was doing was just pointing out the merits the Boost has given us since it's inception, and that I do not wish to see all of its applications discard due to some misconceptions about it.

Look at it this way; people hated the misconception about how the other playable characters were inherently the problem rather than how they were implemented. This same logic applies to the Boost, it's not as one dimensional or shallow as people accuse it of.

It needs a reapplication, not an outright removal.

 

They aren't misconceptions, at least not the idea that there is less you can do when following the set path. Less slopage means less opportunities to height boost and a strict focus on horizontal movement. Generations gave us a little bit of this. Long grind rail and quick step segments means you are restricted to quick stepping between the same 2/3 lanes. Having only one real path a la a lot of Unleashed and Forces (Generations had some good branching paths) means you are limited in your exploration. Yes you can show us a speedrun video or a video of someone physically breaking the boundaries of the game, but it doesn't change the fact that these boundaries are set in place.

We've seen ways in the past that this gameplay style can be less restrictive, but the point is Sonic Team hasn't done much of that lately. The example with Spark 2 is much different because Spark's movement is allowing him to scale the level vertically. He's still going fast and moving toward an objective, but he isn't set along a track. Being able to break out of sections of the track or find ways to pass by them faster doesn't change the fact that you're on one.

I'm pretty sure they were just saying they just don't like that aspect of the game, not that they want to offend you or say it's objectively bad. I don't see the point of responding with footage of something completely different and saying "well I guess you never played the game more then once". Can we please just stop this pointless arguing about what people can and can't dislike, talking about "fanbase wars" that don't exist? This is a speculation thread.

 

Never once have I said that people aren't allowed or not allowed to like something, so I'd appreciate not putting words in my mouth thank you.

All I said is that there is more to do in these games than initially presented and it requires some digging is all, same as in the Spark 2 video that was posted. Both games follow the same principle of following a path towards an objective and, depending on the player's own choices, can choose to do so however they wish. As I pointed out, there are plenty of paths and ways to transverse a lot of Boost levels.

That's it; I didn't say that people were wrong, I didn't say people offended me, I'm just pointing information I felt was somewhat incorrect and nothing more.

 

I'm just silently sitting over here in the corner enjoying literally everything the franchise has put out while you guys do your thing :D

 

I understand that, but it's not like nobody else has done any digging. We've all played these games probably more times than is healthy. The two different styles of level design here are wildly different, and it's just plain wrong to say the boost games give you the same freedom. Well to be fair, there are surely some different ways to do so in a boost game, but they are all moving along the same track, and in most boost games aside from some of Generations and a few sections in Colors, the level design wants you to go straight along that horizontal track, sometimes branching between high and low paths and sometimes giving you two. Believe me, I've played through Generations Sky Sanctuary a bajillion times and - despite the numerous branching paths there - I am still limited to those linear horizontal paths. And it's not like it's Melee and Sonic has a billion movements options to change how I traverse the level. I understand your point is that you can find depth in the way you traverse levels, but that doesn't mean there is the same amount of depth in these games; minus breaking the game or essentially getting into speedrun territory. Generations definitely gave more expression of movement, but it's strange to me for someone to say that it is the same as a vertical movement-based 3D platformer. The digging has been done and people still don't like what they don't like, that's what I mean to say.

Sorry if it sounded like putting words in your mouth, it's just that saying "youve only played the game once so you don't get it" or "you need to do more digging" is suggesting that there is something people are missing, when in reality I think it's just a difference in how much freedom you want from a game. A game with hallway-like levels (for the most part, as we've said there are exceptions) that rarely splits and gives the player a very limited toolkit that's designed to move them forward horizontally along that track... Just isn't going to offer the same KIND of depth that the other game offers. Not saying the former game doesn't or cant have any depth, but these things are quantifiable. The subjective thing is what kind of depth and how much depth you enjoy in a game.

Also - to clarify - I am not suggesting that a new Adventure game or whatever would provide more depth or something. Just that I can understand and sympathize with someone who doesn't like the extremely horizontally-focused movement that boost Sonic offers. Generations' City Escape was - for me - the most fun I've had vertically scaling a boost Sonic level. I definitely agree that a reapplication would do it a lot more justice, but in its current state I wish there was a lot more of those parts I really love.

 

I only speak for myself. I was there. I got Unleashed as a kid, played it through, loved it, cried at the ending like a dork. I got Generations and ADORED it. I bought it on PC too and adored it there when I got a gaming PC. I did not play Colors, funnily enough, despite having a Wii, because my Wii was basically my Melee and Brawl Machine and not much else, haha. I didn't play Lost World, because I had fallen off of Sonic before then. I then played Forces only a few months ago.

So I played basically all of the boost games except Colors. The two "main" ones when they came out. I loved them at the time. It's years later, now, though. I have gone back and re-evaluated them in my big ol' brain book of Frostav Opinions on Games.

Let me clarify: I think Generations and Unleashed are totally fine games. I even think Forces is painfully average but still fun enough for a single playthrough (though I think that's just me adoring the avatar feature and unlocking stuff with S-ranks). I don't think they are bad in the same way I think 06 is bad. They control fine, they look great, they have great music, (one) of them has a decent storyline and the other has lovely re-imaginings of past levels in breath-taking HD graphics.

But I want more than that. I want more than "pretty good". I know Sonic can be more. I want a Sonic game with levels that don't automatically assume that I just want to blast through them. I don't want a Sonic game with controls that throw away all nuance in favor of hypermaxspeed all the time. I want a Sonic game that feels like it values deep mechanics that allow you to do a lot of things. I want a Sonic game like the 3D Mario games--games built with movesets and controls that allow you to do all sorts of things, even things the designers didn't exactly intend, because they have so much depth and nuance that you're free to do that kind of thing. I want physics to matter. I want Sonic to feel like he can do anything, if I have the skill and knowledge of my environment to do that.

And yes, fangames have contributed to this. I didn't know about SRB2 when I played Unleashed as a kid. Utopia and Sonic GT would not exist for around a decade yet. But I'm sorry, y'all. After playing games like that, I expect a bit more from the actual series. No amount of "but [flaws]" will change the fact that I had more childish fun playing that one Sonic Utopia GHZ demo or SRB3 or Sonic GT than any of the boost games had ever given me. I was free. I could do stuff that wasn't just what the developers expected from me.

I have more fun fucking around in unpolished Bumper Engine fangame demos with three levels and clunky controls than I do playing actual Sonic Team games.

That's a problem. Maybe it's a Me problem, I dunno.

But you just cannot tell me that in those fangames, there isn't some inkling of potential in their slightly clunky design and experimental level design. Something a full team could do better and more polished. A potential of a Sonic that isn't on rails, whose levels can't be described solely as linear hallways with minor alternate routes, who doesn't need 2D sections or Classic Sonic or a werehog or wisps to pad out the gameplay time.

These fangames feel like a messy evolution of the Adventure formula, lightly sprinkling in the higher speeds and spectacle of the boost games while bolstering the physics to better emulate the joyous depth of the classic games. Above all, despite their flaws, despite their limitations, they are FUN. And that's what matters (to me). They are enjoyable.

And while we have done this same song and dance over and over again, and we're all sick of it, this is a time of change for Sonic. The western branch of SEGA runs the show now. The boost formula is clearly losing steam. Nostalgic throwbacks are the in-thing right now in games. I do not expect SEGA to come out with the "3D Classic Sonic" game in my dreams, but I have a feeling the starting of a new era is coming. I just hope that the western branch of SEGA can get him back on track.

 

I feel like the issue we're having is that some of us have very different interpretations in how the Sonic series should function; at it's core, Sonic is a platformer with an emphasis on speed. The division however seems to come from which element people prefer more of. As I mentioned, Boost gameplay is excellent at selling the main quality of Sonic, namely his speed. There is no greater feeling that blitzing past all of these environments at breakneck speeds in the most stylish way possible, it's fucking great. The problem is that they are not good platforming games, despite the fact that they are supposed to be sold as one. The Boost gameplay was never trying to be a platformer to begin with, but since Sonic IS a platformer and that's what people expect from the series, it pretty much guaranteed that the Boost gameplay would be super divisive between the people who love the spectacle and stylish action versus the people who actually wanna play a platformer.

Personally speaking, I love Sonic as both a platformer and as a spectacle stylish action game; I feel they are both incredibly integral to his identity as a whole. But, admittedly speaking, the series has had a notable lack of actual platforming ever since Boost came into effect, and the platforming that it does have quite frankly, sucks. Sonic Team have tried to quell the complaints about how linear and shallow boost is by adding some platforming elements, but that only served to compromise what the style was designed for, to go fast. I love Seaside Hill and City Escape, but there was a part of me that felt like they could have been so much more, and part of that feeling probably lies in the fact that they are constrained by the model that is the Boost. Additionally, Generation's Boost levels feel nowhere near as stylish and expansive as Unleashed's. It's a very awkward compromise between the spectacle and platformer, and while it does work for the most part judging by the game's reception, it does notably hold the game back from what it could be.

So now the series is at a crossroads; I do agree that the series needs to go back to being an actual platformer again, maybe in trying to incorporate some elements from the early 2D games, as well as Sonic Adventure. But I don't think the Boost needs to leave either, because it is just as valid of an interpretation of Sonic. Think of Boost as a representation of Sonic, the character, as opposed to Sonic, the platforming mascot. While it may be too straightforward, and not have much depth, it feels very exhilarating and that's a perfect way to describe Sonic's character. I think getting rid of the Boost style wholesale is just losing a part of the series that best represents its flagship character, and that would be a huge shame imo.

Many of these opinions are definitely echoed from EmiBani's video on the Boost, and they made me appreciate it a lot more as a valid style and why I don't want to see it be dropped entirely.

 

I'd say it is a "you problem" Frostav, but the thing is it's also a "me problem", and a "many people problem". But for others, they really appreciate the rhythm-game-esque reaction challenges the games offer, as @Hikki Komori said.

It'd be nice if there were a way to satisfy all camps with one revamped boost game that does all of those things perfectly, but surely that is asking for an awful lot.

I have a feeling that whatever comes next isn't going to completely satisfy anyone's idea of what the franchise "should be". I'm hopeful that it's something MOST of us can enjoy, even if it's something completely new. We all like this franchise for some reason or another, so hopefully there's a little bit of what we all like. But, having grown up with multiple generations of Sonic, I think I may just be happy as long as it's a polished product.

 

In an IDEAL world, the Boost could continue as a spin off while Sonic team work on the next platforming game. But that's likely not going to happen and they're more than likely going to drop it wholesale.