Sonic Forces Thread

C

Completely.
I am 100% with you on your argument that the idea Sonic Colours has as much content as Sonic 3 is flawed, but the statements about how no one in history has ever called Blue Spheres 3D quite incendiary.

There is forwards and backwards, left and right, and elevation. QED: It has three dimensions. Is it a primitive form of 3D, absolutely, but it was cutting edge at the time and designed to be 3D to the contemporary definition of the term.

And calling out anyone who would describe it that way, and I quote:

completely demolishes your argument.

 

It's not 3D platforming. It's not a 3D platforming game where you are expecting to play in 3D most of the time. It doesn't matter how much 3D it has when the game IS NOT a 3D platformer.

Is that not clear? Even if Blue Sphere's has 3D using it in an argument for COLORS flaws is very weird when it never presented itself as a 3D platformer or a game where you should expect to be playing in 3D for large amounts of time.

 

So... I was thinking of just walking away from a pointless argument - but having thought about it, I think we need to rephrase where we are - because I am NOT arguing against your point, I am just asking you to acknowledge that Blue Spheres were designed to be 3D and walk back an earlier statement. Sonic 3 & Knuckles has hours of 2D gameplay and just over a dozen special stages so - yes, I completely am with you that the comparison is stupid - but its not a stupid comparison because Blue Spheres isn't 3D (it is) and its not a stupid comparison because Digital Duck is underestimating the 2D content. The idea that S3K has only 30 minutes of 2D gameplay is absurd - it is possible with a speed run (https://www.speedrun.com/s3k/run/mk3je73z) but that skips significant portions of content and is not going to be 99.9% of players experience. Similarly the metrics put forward about Colours respective length can be treated as dubious for other reasons.

No - the conversation (that predates me getting involved) was about relative amounts of 2D and 3D gameplay.
If you look at Sonic 2, Sonic CD, Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles (and then 3D Blast and Chaotic) we can see the implementation and gradual evolution of these 'special' elements that transfer Sonic into a 3 dimensional environment. Its hard to believe it now but for the early 90s this was quite innovative technology - as broken as they appear now they were put in the game purely to wow the audience. They are also clearly separated from core gameplay and relegated to special stages.

In more recent boost games the 2D sections are used either 1) to pad out and provide a gap between the 3D sections or 2) provide a slice of variety. They are mandatorily built into the level design throughout the entire experience. They are not special but a core part of the game design.

Comparisons between the 3D / 2D ratio between the old games is pointless - because they serve different purposes. 2D sections in 3D games are NOT designed as the 'wow' moment of the respective entires - they are just variants on a theme. As - has been pointed out previously in the thread - they are good at offering variety and gameplay loops that just don't work in the boost formula in 3D (i.e. tight platforming).

Over the course of four games on the mega drive (and SEGA CD) these 3D special stages evolved and varied significantly - partially as the tech evolved but also as they searched for something new to impress audiences. They could not afford to loose that wow factor. The special stages were named such because they were that - 'special'

However across 4 boost games (unleashed - forces) the 2D sections have not evolved. They are repetitive - irritating for some people familiar with pixel based 2D sonic as they cannot capture that simplicity of momentum - and potentially irritating for people who value the 3D design and want it to clearly separate it from the classic 2D experience more. By the time we reach forces we have been overly repetitive and lacked any true innovation - and this is the problem. Sonic should be innovative and Forces is not - and its lack of innovation in turn devalues its predecessors as it exposes their flaws all the more.

Comparisons between a 2D and 3D mix or content ratio between old Sonic and Modern Sonic are flawed because you are not comparing remotely the same thing. Take away the special stages and Sonic 2, CD, 3 and Knuckles would still stand as great platforms. Take away the 2D from the boost games and they loose half their content. However to shout out the assertion that the mega drive games had 3D content - and to claim that you could even call them 3D it is something mr fantastic would find laughable - is also wrong on every level. I think Digital Duck is wrong in their statement but not laughable.

In my mind? The solution is to drop the boost formula and find something new that is closer to the Adventure design, but that's just me.
(Just hanging my colours here so my personal biases are clear for all to see)

 

PS. New comment that I think needs to be separate from the above - because that was convoluted enough as it is.
2D transition in 3D games CAN be wow factor moments.

Just finished replaying Nier Automata and - for a predominantly 3D game - it has some great 2D moments. Here is my possible favourite:



Restricting your movement to sideways on the moving train car, whilst the world spins round you in 3D and you sword fight with enemies whilst the soaring music plays... It gives players this awesome rush. The moment communicates something special to the player.

Sonic Team almost NEVER does this. I am fine for them to have 2D moments is they use them to make statements, if they use them to impart some kind of 'wow' factor - but they don't. Its just a momentary switch of perspective and via repetition, a full stop to usually slow the player down and actually make them press a button that's not forward, jump or boost - and this has made it become boring.

To an extent I'm fine with it in Unleashed and Colours because back then it felt new. Then Generations upgraded it from about half the gameplay to 75% when you include classic Sonic, then forces failed to innovate at all.

 

The 3d special stages in S3K are just an optional minigame. The 2d sections in Colors are part of the levels themselves, are mandatory and are considered part of the campaign's length. I don't think that comparison holds any water.

And I agree that a normal S3K playthrough will take way more than 30 minutes even if you don't count the special stages and cutscenes.

 

This, and I can't believe this even has to be debated. The special stages are a minigame that you never have to interact with once to reach the end credits. Standing on buttons for platforms to rise/fall or otherwise shift into position (alongside others such slow parts of these 2D sections) is needed to beat the game.

I wonder if the 2D/3D balance would be improved with that "as it was intended" hack mod thing that Josh gave a shout out to a while back?

Speaking of mods, can I have one that just strips out all of Classic Sonic? No levels, no bosses, even his cutscenes just blur him out like that one episode of Black Mirror?

 

I'm gonna echo Josh's "who cares?" comment. The ratio of 2D to 3D has absolutely no bearing on whether Colors is fun or not. And that's really all that needs to be said on the matter.

 

Speaking from personal experience, I found that the overabundance of 2d sections got old fast and made the levels feel too restrictive. It wouldn't have been so bad if there weren't so many of them, but Colors really went overboard with the 2d to 3d ratio. So yes, it did have a bearing on the fun factor for me and many others.

 

But is it because it was 2D or because of how it was implemented? There is a difference.

 

Okay they're 3D. It's still irrelevant in a conversation about Colors flaws as they're optional and Sonic 3 and Knuckles is not a 3D platformer or a game that is intended to be played in 3D for the majority of the game. Irrelevant arguments are reaches and stretches and I don't take back my Mr. Fantastic and Luffy comparison because it was a very bad comparison.

 

Well, I know what my argument's gonna be next time someone complains about the adventure games playstyle roulette. (and I am including 06 in that)

 

I feel like there's a way to satisfy both parties here, there's no reason to make this into a binary issue (2D or 3D only); the real problem at hand is that the 3D sections of these games often half baked and not at all fleshed out, while the 2D sections are generally implemented in a way that break up the flow and aren't really satisfying to go through. If you make both sections consistent with each other and actually fleshed them out more, then they both feel satisfying to play rather than one feeling more lacking than the other.

 

Because it was overused. 2d is by definition more restrictive than 3d, so making most of the game 2d made the levels too restrictive for me, especially after people hyped it up as "the first good 3d Sonic game".

Good for you. I wasn't trying to imply that my view was an universal one, I was just addressing the "Who cares? That doesn't make it less fun" comment. People who found that the mechanic was overused and made the experience less fun do.

 

I think you're aiming this as a sort of "TAKE THAT!" against "the other side," but no, you're right, this is where we have a lot of common ground. It was a problem that got worse and worse from SA1 onward: Mainstream critics and many of us in the fandom turned on the very CONCEPT of "Sonic's shitty friends." It became such a common criticism, it was even one of the fundamentals of one of the most pervasive, harmful memes the wider gaming community ever had about Sonic:


(I'm not saying the meme was entirely WRONG in what it was observing. SEGA really had put us through this multiple times in a row by 2008. But it was a problem because for years, nobody in the mainstream could review or report on Sonic without bringing it up. Nobody except Sonic fans even talks about Forces now, but EVERYONE knew about this, that's how pervasive it was.)

But "Sonic's friends" weren't a problem anyone was complaining about before Sonic Adventure. Nobody took issue with Tails and Knuckles being playable in S3&K. And why? B̶e̶c̶a̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶e̶y̶e̶s̶ ̶w̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶b̶l̶a̶c̶k̶ Because playing as them still felt like playing a "Sonic" game. Similarly, Tails and Knuckles weren't the parts of SA1 that people complained about, because while the focus of their levels may have changed, they were still built out of the same fundamentals. Tails was an interesting spin on Sonic's stages, and Knuckles was so well-received (and let's be real, the character was so popular among fans) that some people even preferred his gameplay to Sonic's.

But as the 3D series went on, these alternate gameplay styles deviated more from Sonic's core game design. While we've had people defending mech shooting/treasure hunting/Werehog as "not that bad" since the day the game came out, the fact remains that there was a debate at all. They didn't have the same widespread appeal as Sonic's gameplay, they were being executed worse and worse, and they eventually came to be seen as one of THE defining factors that was ruining the series. To the point that Sonic 06's marketing obfuscated the fact that amigo characters were EVEN A THING until like a week before release, because they knew that alone would get them so much bad press.

But "multiple playable characters" was never a bad concept. But it isn't hard to see how this sort of execution would lead people to throw their hands up and say, "Enough with Sonic's shitty friends, just focus on a Sonic game where I _actually get to play as Sonic_." But if the other characters' gameplay was still as enjoyable for as wide an audience as Sonic's was (which would probably mean it still resembled a speedy 3D platformer), people wouldn't have turned on the concept.

Similarly then, nobody was complaining about 2D sections in Unleashed or Generations when they were new, because those games used them so much more effectively. The problem with them is when the level design grinds to a halt and stops feeling like a Sonic game, which absolutely happens in a couple of Colors' worst-designed stages (those CUBE puzzles come to mind), and happens regularly throughout Forces, where the 2D sections often resemble something you'd find in a bad Mario Maker level. But if the 2D sections were still more organically blended with 3D sections, and still featured a nice mix of speed and platforming instead of blocky layouts and padding, then once again, people wouldn't have turned on the concept.

 

Restrictive in terms of what exactly? Something being overused implies there's an aspect about it that you didn't like, or do you just hate 2D on principal in this case?

 

Restrictive in terms of what I expect from what I'm told is a 3d game. I expect a 3d game to let me move in three dimensions most of the time.

 

So does the mere presence of 2D invalidate the claim that it's a 3D game? Does Mario Galaxy or Mario Odyssey having 2D segments suddenly mean that it no longer qualifies as a 3D platformer?

 

Um, no, because the 2d sections made up less than 15% of those games.

 

Then maybe instead of saying "There's too much 2D" you could say "They need to flesh out the 3D sections more and let them stand on their own" , even if you have a personal distaste for 2D in general, that's a much better argument to frame it from and gets the same point across.

Saying "there's' too much 2D" is almost the equivalent of saying there's too many of Sonic's friends, which doesn't address the underlying issues being presented. It's not there's too much 2D, its that the 3D sections aren't substantial enough on their own to make up for the presence of 2D.