Eh...I don't really know about that. For starters his campaign really doesn't have anything to do with the main story with Chaos at all. I guess you can say Amy's or Gamma's doesn't either, which is a fair point but in Big's case his campaign almost seems like complete filler. This only proves this with the fact that Big's gameplay style was legit made as sorta of a beta or advertisement or...something for Sega Bass Fishing on the Dreamcast. But seeing as that wouldn't be the case for the potential remake, one could say you really wouldn't need Big at all.
Given Froggy's involvement with characters finding two Chaos Emeralds and Big actually fights Chaos I suppose he has SOME involvement. I think the fact Big wasn't directly involved against Chaos was the whole point though, that he was a normal simple guy minding his own business only to get caught up in the bigger picture, never really fully understanding what was going on. That was an interesting POV. I feel he could fixed as easily as a few extra background moments or levels, like maybe he unknowingly plays part in the others finding other Chaos Emeralds when trying to get Froggy back earlier on. Keeping it all indirect and him never actually set on Chaos feels the point though. Gamma I get the feeling was maybe meant to have more involvement helping Eggman earlier in the plot (there's a HUGE time skip between his first and second level) but again POV plays on the fact Gamma is a mindless drone with no personal attachment to the Chaos arc. Amy.....well that one is harder to think. Amy genuinely doesn't have much attachment besides Birdie and that one Emerald. She helps Gamma, but Gamma's attachment to the main plot ends there too. Maybe they could add some quick background dialogue with Eggman or something ordering his E-Series to recollect the emeralds or stop Sonic entering the Final Egg or something, giving the others some small indirect involvement in the last parts of the story. I liked the unique POV idea however, this wasn't Freedom Fighters the game where everyone was off the work against the bad guy, this was all character driven and everyone came in set on their own thing. It just could have been meshed together a lot better.
To my recollection, Big was actually made because they wanted to give the players an excuse to look at the pretty water graphics of the Dreamcast. He was also made to give players something else to do if they weren't the best at the rest of the game. Sonic Adventure was designed as a sort of all emcompassing RPGesque Action Adventure game, so having a fishing game in there isn't all that out of left field in my eyes. For comparison, see Ocarina of Time. With that said, I dont see why "it needing to be there" matters much as argument. OoT also didn't "need" its fishing minigame. As others both detractors and advocates for SA1s structure have said, its 6 gameplay styles is core to its premise. If the goal with a remake is to take said game and fix its flaws to make it a better version of itself by modern standards, then I don't see how one can justify Big's removal wholesale without also insinuating that the premise of the multiple gameplay styles itself was inherently flawed. I'd be for going as far as to make Big's story optional or postgame, but removing it wholesale? Not convinced. Just as I wouldn't remove Labyrith Zone from Sonic 1 in spite of general concensus on the level.
Yeah, removing an element doesn't feel like a proper remake. I'm all for trying to make Big's gameplay a smoother experience but don't 'fix' it by taking it out, that's the lazy man's way. I truthfully appreciate Big in concept, the more laid back campaign designed to let players mellow out, they just needed to execute it better. Fishing had to be more simple and breezy and not tedious, and Big had to be less vulnerable and boring platforming wise. I feel like you could tweak him a fair bit without changing how he works altogether and make him at least somewhat enjoyable. Improve the fishing physics and make the controls more obvious, and make Big relatively faster (but still slow) and give him a more powerful move he can unlock, and make his levels a bit larger while maintaining a simplistic design to roam around and chill inside. Expand, don't take out.
My reason for removing it was beyond just not liking him or his gameplay: the more playstyles there are, the more the dev team has to split their attention/effort. That's why I went with my PoC idea: Sonic's gameplay is the one that matters the most, so he needs to be perfected. Sonic as he is in Adventure is "good", but I want him to be "fantastic" before adding extra characters on top. That's what classic Sonic did: they got the formula fully fleshed out before adding characters that actually controlled differently.
But its a remake. The dev team isnt making new gameplay styles they have to figure out and plan how they intertwine like with the original, and arent limited by old hardware and limited understanding of the realms of 3D. The original game more or less has the entirety of the groundwork done for them as a blueprint as a result, so the issue of the devs being "spread themselves thin" isn't an issue as it was. If Spyro 3 can be remade without that being an issue, I dont see why SA1 can't.
I don't think Big has to go... but something really needs to be done about his gameplay. And like y'all said, 'm sure they could probably make the fishing gameplay more interesting and less clunky; after all, Sega has made plenty of decent fishing games before. But I'd like to see more fleshed out levels for Big. Maybe less emphasis on the fishing stuff and more focus on exploration for him. Maybe more water exploration honestly, since I found that to be pretty interesting. I mean that's kinda what they did, but I really feel like fishing doesn't need to be the focal point of it all. It's not even integral to his place in the story, since he could just find Froggy at the end of the stage or something. Maybe they can even revamp some stages to give his fishing rod more utility. Big's story was just as much a part of the game as any other character's, but I don't think too many people would complain if the stages were driven toward a slightly different objective that didn't suddenly change the genre of the game. As for Gamma and Knuckles, I actually enjoyed their gameplay for the most part, but they did get a bit stale imo. I just can't think of what they could do to address that. I feel like Amy's robot chase stages could just exist without the robot chase, since it was hardly of any actual consequence anyway. I'd like to see them do the same thing for Amy that I'd like to see for Big, just giving her more opportunities to use her unique abilities and change the objective a little bit. As for Tails, I don't really even play his levels unless I'm going for a full playthrough. The brevity of the racing stages and how easily you could cheese them definitely felt more like padding the game with content. A lot of people say that Big's gameplay is padding, but I'd argue Tails' gameplay is even moreso. Big's story is going for a completely different gameplay style and the levels are given pretty unique layouts to accommodate the change in pace, whereas Tails' story is mostly just running through Sonic's stages while racing a pretty generous CPU opponent. Because CPU Sonic didn't really interact with the player in any meaningful way, I feel like Tails' stages could just be a time attack and it'd have the same effect. But then why not just play a time attack mode? Again, it feels like kind of a boring objective that doesn't really play to the strengths of the character. I'd also like to see a bit more uses for Tails' flight ability. Flying through boost-loops to cheese the CPU wasn't very fun to me personally, but I did like that you could fly pretty fast and think of your own shortcuts in some stages.
Truthfully yeah, I rate Tails' gameplay the lowest. Sure it's more conventional but it's not intuitive at all, it's just cheesing a small portion of Sonic's levels. Again I feel like using more developed leads than boost rings might have helped, instead have proper short cuts and unique routes only Tails can reach like in the 2D games, sure they are still easier routes, but they would still involve actual GAMEPLAY and exploration. I think level design plays a lot into it really. Sure there's odd things I'd edit about the character physics themselves, like giving Big a proper attack (eg. his Heroes body slam) and giving him and Amy a slightly faster top speed, but generally it's the levels that often make the other characters feel more half baked than Sonic. Gamma has a great gameplay but his levels end way too fast and his bosses don't really put up much of a fight. Big's an exceptional example of this because a lot of the time you're not really exploring as him at all, you're using a side mechanic, which limits things way more. Most of the time, the character's last level shows them used to their fuller potential: * Tails' Speed Highway is starts off a Sonic route then diverges into loads of aerial pathways and obstacles with a relatively tougher AI who can mirror your ability to fly. * Knuckles' Sky Deck has a more elaborate sandbox with a greater scope of less obvious emerald locations and some mild use of puzzle format (without being quite as tedious and confusing as some of the SA2 levels, just one easy to find switch to toggle). Lost World wasn't too bad in this regard either, still a bit too easy, but the size of the level and the use of the digging ability made it fun to play around in. * Amy's Final Egg is okay but her Hot Shelter makes a greater more effective use of her puzzle based gameplay and more areas that can be exploited by her hammer moves. * Gamma's Hot Shelter is also more sizeable and well made, with a unique train section and a relatively tougher mini boss. It's also about the one level you can actually risk running out of time on if you're not careful to shoot enough targets to replenish your counter. * Big's Hot Shelter is still basic but it at least has a small platform section as lead up to the fishing section. The unused areas also suggest it would have had a mild bit of puzzle based mechanics where you had to search for the switch to release the water with Froggy. I can definitely understand why they prioritised Sonic's levels, his style is the big draw so obviously he comes first, but it is a shame the others don't really reach the same level quality until their campaigns are practically over.
Tails could work as an easy mode in standard 3D Sonic levels if you just slow down his momentum when he flies and make it so his flight doesn't last as long. He's just so OP in Adventure and was designed around that. I'd just love to have big, open levels with multiple paths in a Sonic game (the Autodemo Windy Valley was pretty close, actually), and Tails would work well with that, being able to have higher, harder to reach paths more easily accessed with his flight. To be honest, as much as I like the Adventure games, I'd like to have Adventure more reimagined. Keep the tone, locales and characters, but I'd love more open levels with a good physics engine. I'd love to explore a more open Emerald Coast with more open paths and alternate paths for certain characters. They could also design the levels so that every character could complete them with multiple routes, e.g. Amy could have more Mario-like routes focused on tight platforming because she wouldn't be able to make it up all of the hills that Sonic can. Either that, or just have the layouts change depending on who you play as. Unfortunately, modern Sega only really has experience with overly long, linear levels, so I doubt they'd ever take this route, as much as I want it, and I don't think many other people feel this way. It's like how I wanted a 3D reimagining of Link's Awakening for years because I loved that game, the setting, the stories and the characters, and when we get a remake that is 1:1 with the original, everyone told me I was crazy for wanting such a thing...
I always thought in like a hypothetical Sonic Adventure 3, Sonic could maintain the boost gameplay while Tails adopts most of Sonic's old Adventure gameplay. It'd allow them to both be different while actually giving Tails purpose besides "tech guy." Also in said hypothetical, Knuckles would adopt the werehog gameplay but less fight, more platforming (and no battle music, ughhh that got annoying in Unleashed), and more exploration.
I've thought about that, and I think the reason Tails comes across as OP in Adventure (as would Knuckles in Sonic's levels) is because the levels are so heavily focused on horizontal movement. In the classics Sonic and crew weren't just navigating a long series of slopes and platforms, there were multiple paths in each level, stacked vertically that would intersect at various points. There were also at times U-turns of sorts, where Sonic transitions from going right, to up or down, then to left. These areas are where the flying and wall-climbing shine the most, to find shortcuts and alternate paths. One of the best examples is right at the beginning of Sandopolis Act 2: Sure, Knuckles could follow the path right as Sonic had if he wants...OR he could climb the left wall and find a whole separate section that puts his unique abilities to use. Imagine a reverse Speed Highway middle section: Sonic would traverse a skyscraper from the inside, ascending from ground floor to rooftop in an effort to meet up with Tails in the Tornado to chase Eggman's ship. Knuckles could go the same way...OR he could climb the outside of the building for his own unique challenges. Maybe a brief section of Sonic's route branches outside for a minute, and then a Knuckles player has to decide whether sticking to the outside or heading inside would give the fastest time. Or a version of Icecap where Sonic begins at an intersection, either going up the mountainside or down into a cavern. Then halfway through, the paths crisscross, the mountain path descending into a separate cave, and the first cave running up the mountain. Sonic would, barring a small and difficult platforming challenge, have to change locales...but Tails could fly over and stay in the open air should he so choose.
Imma just break this and say... Even though I'm fully aware that zero poses virtually no threat in Amy's stages, am I the only person who still gets massive anxiety playing them? Like, I love the levels, and enjoy getting stalked around, the pressure to escape is fun. But am I really the only person here who still feels anxious playing Amy's stages at all?
Nah I get what you mean. I think ZERO's challenge is minimal but sort of enough to keep you going. If he were too persistent then the focus on puzzles and precise platforming in Amy's levels would be a nightmare but if he weren't there the levels would maybe feel a bit too slow paced. Plus it's kinda cathartic decking him whenever he gets too close. Maybe they should have kept the supposed mechanic that if you hit him too often he'd become invincible and the 'panic' mode would begin.
I mean, you're clearly supposed to. I wouldn't say I get massive anxiety, but somewhat anxious, sure.
"They just need to cap Tails flying height to fix him" They did that in Sonic 06. Everyone hated it. The PC fan remake removed the height cap and Tails is just as disgusting as he was in SA1. There has to be a happy medium between player movement/expression and game balance between the Adventure and 06 ends of the spectrum. As for Big, maybe reimagine his fishing minigame with proper underwater stages. DYK Adventure is the only game in the whole series where you're able to go underwater in 3D? Even if they're just miniature sections of given levels and not outright sections, it's still an interesting curiosity.
Personally, I find Red Mountain a much better example of the best of Knuckles' SA1 gameplay, with Skydreck to me being the worst. The weird gravity gimmick makes traversing the level a pain, messing with the switch is never clear about whether you've adjusted the gravity correctly when adjusting the joy stick and because of how the levels designed, you will be backtracking back to the thing repeatedly. People often make a fuss about the radar in SA2, but with SkyDeck you might as well have it since you actually have to backtrack from one end of the stage to the other to adjust the gravity each time. I personally would go as far as to say its some of the lowest Hunting gameplay in the series. Up there with Mad Space. Red Mountain, I feel plays to Knuckles' strengths much better. Its a lot more verticle, open and big, so you get more mileage out of his Gliding and Climbing. Its size also means the shards are more likely to be spaced out so it isn't AS easy to just pick all 3 shards in 2 seconds and the level just ends, resulting in a more engaging level. Its still not amazing, but it did feel a lot more substancial. I agree with just about everything, especially the bit about Tails being the weakest. It certainly bogs down the experience significantly more given how much of the cutscene and story beats and... levels of Sonic's playthrough are repeated. I agree that Zero while not super threatening is certainly enough of a meaningful presence to warrant his inclusion in Amy's playthrough. He's not hard to get caught by but he still lights a fire under the players rear that requires them to keep their wits about them and stay on their toes. Maybe bump it up a tad, but I dont think he needs to be a super threat either. I do like the idea of the pinch mode for when you hit Zero a certain number of times though.
Fair enough, I admit Sky Deck is a bit tedious, just I found the one switch and the better radar much easier to get to grips with than some of truly clueless puzzles in SA2. It was also at least some example of giving one of Knuckles' levels a unique gimmick and not just relying on his gameplay niche carrying all of it (which I think is sometimes the problem with a lot of the alternate playables' levels). Red Mountain I agree has an awesome level design, if only the emerald locations were a bit less obvious most of the time. SA2 was mostly a downgrade though I admit the wall dig function added more variation in finding them. Tails I think could have done with more unique POV to make his campaign stand out. There were subtle implications Tails was more nervous and less confident in his story though they were very minimal, especially in the Japanese edit which usually just recycled the same dialogue between campaigns. Even worse since, until his last showdown with Eggman Tails is probably the most dully expositional character in the game. I also think they should have used more opportunities to give Tails unique levels sometimes. Like maybe you could done a backwards trek through Emerald Coast at the start, or Sand Hill could have been a race against one of the E-Series robots after Froggy. I think this is why Speed Highway sticks out since it has SOME deviations from just being Sonic's level. I also think it's a shame the Adventure Fields don't capitalise on him and the other's abilities more, making them bigger and more explorational and having more items and missions only they can find. Instead it's just slow normal walking a few steps from cutscene to cutscene.
I cant say I agree about the radar in SA2 being worse among other things but i suppose thats a convo for another discussion entirely. Overall, I suppose you are right in that it at least deserves credit for actually having a unique gimmick when Knuckles' stages are otherwise rather bare in SA1. Like most things in SA1s I feel Tails' playthrough parralelling Sonic wasnt really happenstance. In essence, the Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Amy are all extentions of what they were in the Classics. Sonic goes without saying, but Knuckles for example was always the more explorative of the 3 in Sonic 3, using his gliding and climbing to get access to goodies others didn't and going through paths others didn't with his knowledge of the Island. Amy of course was captured by an Eggman Robot and Tails chased Sonic through the levels using his flight to compensate. It then seems to be sort of a package seal that his gameplay would be similar to Sonics as a result of chasing him through levels. Not sure if there was much way around it. I suppose a change that can be made would be to relegate all the Tornado sections to his playthrough and his alone to better contrast his playthtough from Sonic? Earlier, I suggested cutting the Tornado 1 sections for both but maybe this would be better. Another thing that could be done is replacing things such as Sonic's Snowboard section with something else for Tails, etc. I feel Tails' gameplay would just benefit from having more distractions from it than other playthroughs. Wont get me disagreeing about the Adventure Fields. My thoughts on their merit aside, if they were to be introduced, they could and should have provided a lot more to the experience to compensate.
The main thing I'd change is story progression. It'd follow a more SA2-like progression, but with one story instead of two. Basically, depending on what's happening in the story, you'd play through the characters in a progression. Sonic, then Tails, then Knuckles, etc. This would necessitate some changes, especially where levels are shared. Tails for most of the game would get an "act two" to Sonic's level, that would be more designed around his abilities. You'd be following Sonic, but it wouldn't necessarily be a race. Knuckles, Amy, Big, E-102, in cases where levels are shared, would get their own area of the location designed specifically for them. Gameplay would remain relatively unchanged. Mostly, I would not add the boost mechanics from modern games. Ideally things would be more physics based, with rolling mechanics like other posters have described, especially for Sonic. Big's gameplay, I think I would make more of a platformer with some beat 'em up elements. That, or he'd becoming an arcade-y fishing minigame. I'd be tempted to make E-102's gameplay into more of a third person shooter style, but I feel like this would clash too much with the platforming gameplay, so ultimately I say he should remain mostly unchanged. Everything else would be regular remake stuff. Modern graphics and art, re-recorded voice acting, etc.
