Yeah, that's another good example of a fandom cycle. Just about everything I've seen fans say about RCS lately, I heard them say about Jason Griffith 10 years ago. Heck, I FELT the same way about Griffith that a lot of them do about RCS. Griffith got significantly better toward the end of his run, but he mostly sounded like "4kids Sonic" to me. He was TRYING too hard to be cool instead of being cool, he came across as corny and pandering to kids, and every line was delivered with the exact same over-the-top cadence. (That my friends and I all found him so annoying made him perfect for Brawl, though! "You're too slow!" is so much more troll-y than "Sonic speed!") Compared to that, RCS was (like so much else about Colors) a breath of fresh air. The voice direction in general took a noticeable step up in this game. Sonic and Tails come across as genuine allies and FRIENDS in a way they never had before. There's a believably to the way characters deliver their lines that, for the first time ever, did NOT make me feel like I was watching a poorly-dubbed anime for kids. (Which makes it all the more bizarre that many younger fans count THIS as the point where Sonic turned into a kiddy parody of itself, now.) That said, Colors DOES still have some clunky lines and awkward comedic timing, indicative perhaps of a first attempt. I think the cast now, especially ever since Boom, is noticeably comfortable in their roles. We've had the same cast for 10 years now, and I hope Sega sticks with them. I may have my preferences, but I'd take any voice cast we've ever had if it meant we could've had the consistency that Japan's enjoyed. Like I said earlier, I think a series that targets kids is ALWAYS going to seem pandering and uncool to teens, haha. Especially if the VA voicing the character now ISN'T the same person it was when you were younger. But Sonic was never NOT trying too hard to be cool, and I doubt I'd have found Griffith so "cringe" if I'd been a little older. That said, Jason Griffith might well be my favorite voice actor for Shadow! When I played through Shadow the Hedgehog last year, I was SO surprised to learn that the very same dude making me roll my eyes as Sonic was delivering genuinely convincing lines as Shadow.
The reactions around this game are so multilayered and nuanced that trying to document them all is annoying. I think what it comes down is this; it's not that Colors itself is a bad game, but the ripple effect it had on the series in subsequent years. Sega KNEW Colors was popular, so they deliberately tried to ape it's design in almost every game since, barring Generations. I don't think it's a coincidence that Lost World and Forces, have the same director as Sonic Colors, Morio Kishimoto and both games are share many similarities to it. Certainly more similarities than Generations has in common with Colors. Generations is the only game in the last ten years with a different Director than the rest. This image should basically sum up what I'm trying to get at: So I think it really just comes down to burnout; people were fine with Colors when they thought it wasn't going to be the direction the series would follow for the next 10 years or so. It's a similar type of burnout I see Nintendo fans express towards the New Super Mario Bros. series.; Homogenized games that are severely easy to make and can just be shelled out for a quick buck. It's the same type of burnout I'm assuming most people had towards the 2000's games. Almost every 2000's game would structure itself after the Adventure games in terms of presentation, and by the time 06 rolled around, people were sick of it too. It's a case of diminishing returns; Sega try to ape a style they know was successful, but rather than trying to build and expand on it, they just slap a new gimmick on it and call it a day. You can only do that but so many times before people start taking notice and start calling you out over it. And what makes it even more egregious is that how reactionary Sega is about criticism as well; when people were sick of the Adventure style, they scrapped everything about it. And when people inevitably get sick of the Boost, they'll scrap that too. They don't build or expand, they just react to whoever is shouting the loudest, remove the thing people were complaining about, slap a new gimmick and call it a day. The root of the issue is Sega's inherent laziness when it comes to this series and how they're willing to cut corners to shell out a product for profit. It's no wonder the games the fanbase most remember are the ones that actually try doing something different from its predecessor; SA1 was very different from the classics, SA2 was very different from SA1, and even Heroes was basically an Adventure game structured like a Classic game; but then Shadow's game is basically just SA2 but worse, and 06 is SA1 but worse. Unleashed is remarkably different from 06, even if you didn't like the gimmick, nobody could deny that Sega were attempting something different. But then Colors came along, exercised most of the things Unleashed established, and because the game got amazing critical reception, Sega got a huge ass head about it and decided to let that dictate the series direction. Generations almost feels like a miracle in that sense, probably because it was developed alongside Colors, and therefore was able to carve its own identity from it's two predecessors, while still building on what was there. The result was a remarkably well received game even more so than Colors. So really, what it comes down to is Sega not being able to read the mood and learning the wrong lessons from their games. And no, you can't even put that on the fanbase, because it's the Developers job to be able to whiff through the bullshit and understand the root cause of the issue. Sonic fans being dumbasses isn't an excuse for Sega's laziness.
If that's what you have to label me as to invalidate my opinion, sure. Re: Voices. I'd say that the voice actors themselves are really a different issue than the scripts being referenced. Drummond was closest to Kanemaru out of the English Sonic voices IMO, and when not hampered down by bad dialogue or bad direction, I'd say he was the best we've had. Griffith's performances were frequently... weird sounding, but I can tolerate him since he still sort of sounds like Sonic, and I grew up watching 4Kids Sonic X, so I was at least always used to his voice. Smith has never sounded right for the part in my opinion. I mean, when I was 12 I wasn't paying attention to what Sonic sounded like in Generations, probably since I was more concerned with playing a new Sonic game that had classic Sonic in it. But I know that whenever I did have a realization about Sonic's voice in the newer games, I didn't like it. There was no youthfulness in his voice.
I don't agree, but I can relate! I though Drummond did a fine job (well, until Heroes, but that was a script/direction issue), but I know that spending six very formative years of my life with the literally-an-actual-teenager Jaleel White as the voice of Sonic, then playing Sonic Adventure and hearing this much deeper, more mature voice coming out of the character was SUPER jarring. So I can see why if Griffith was the voice you grew up with, the return to a more mature Sonic with RCS could've been just as weird.
Sonic and Eggman have always had the best voice actors. The secondary character voice actors are usually okay-ish (I'm not a fan of the current Tails, but the performance is of a good standard). A bunch of tertiary characters like Big, Vector, Cream, Jet, Storm, Chip, Cubot and at least half of the Deadly Six have always had incredibly irritating voices. A lot of the others have decent voices but wooden deliveries. (I don't know what's going on with the current Shadow either. Every line is read like he's doing a parody, which worked in Sonic Boom, but the game scripts don't play it that way.) It's a big disparity. In something like Sonic Forces or Team Sonic Racing, a scene with Sonic and Eggman sounds like a slick, contemporary product, but when almost any of the other dozen characters speak it dips into PS1 era '90s anime dub territory. Like, this is not good. Contemporary kids' cartoons and movies don't sound like this. Nor do most contemporary video games. The Sonic series is behind the curve.
Oh yeah, current Shadow SUUUUCKS, and I always forget about him because he almost never talks anymore. His one line of dialogue near the end of Generations, like, "U GOT THIS, SNIC," was something my friends and I mocked for ages.
Agreed, I like Kirk Thornton, he's good at what he does, but he's a terrible fit for Shadow. I guess my big thing about Griffith's Sonic is that, while Roger is a bit "surfer bro" or whatever, his and Ryan's voices sounded like something that could naturally come out of a person's mouth. To me, Jason's doesn't, it FEELS like something he has to put on. It's less "he's trying too hard to sound cool" and more "he's trying to hard to sound like the last guy". It always felt like he was trying to do an impression of Ryan first, and good line delivery second. Roger's voice is different enough that he probably couldn't do an impression of Ryan, so rather than try, he just did his own version. But that's me.
Keep in mind that I also grew up with Jaleel White's Sonic. His performance was always the most memorable and distinct for the character. Also keep in mind that I don't necessarily like Griffith in the part either, I'd just be lying if I didn't say I prefer him over Smith given the choice. I'm not fond of any of the games Griffith was in barring Riders, so most of my "nostalgia" for his performance is from Sonic X, a show I basically never watch in English anymore. I honestly kind of wish Jaleel White came back and voiced Sonic in the games, if not Ryan Drummond.
Just wanted to say I agree with allllll of this, haha. The thoughts have been milling about in my mind but this is basically exactly what I wanted to say I think another similarity worth mentioning is that Unleashed's and Colors' stories are similarly self-contained. There's not really anything of '06 or Secret Rings or Shadow etc. that comes into Unleashed, and yet, Colors seems to catch most of the flak for not acknowledging what came before it and paring down the cast. (Even then, there's technically more characters in Colors than Unleashed if you count the DS version ) re: the current discussion, for what it's worth, I think Kirk Thornton improved a lot as Shadow in Sonic Forces. I may need to revisit some of the main game scenes, but I liked his delivery of the mid-level dialogue in Episode Shadow from what I remember.
So I guess this is the part where I say that I liked his performances in Forces and Season 2 of Boom, but that's probably because he sounds as close to Griffith's take on the character. He just sounds way more natural here, than the gruffness he tries to give the character in stuff like the Twitter Takeovers. I suppose it's just how Sega wants him to sound depending on the context, but I really don't let the cast just...be natural.
I've always found it baffling that they didn't bring White back to voice Classic Sonic in Generations or Forces, considering all the other characters (including classic Tails and Robotnik in Generations!) all had voices, while Classic Sonic was completely mute.
OH MY GOD HE SOUNDS SO MUCH BETTER EVEN IN JUST THE FIRST LINE!!! Why doesn't he do Shadow like that all the time?! I think he's said he can't do that voice anymore. Remember, those were the days of Steve Urkel, and they were 25+ years ago.
Sega. Remember, they're the ones who dictate how the characters sound; they're the reason why Sonic sounds as he does now, and why Amy sounded like Minnie Mouse for a few games. They just make very arbitrary decisions for the voice direction and don't even attempt to sound like the previous actors, let alone the Japanese ones. I've always said that it's not the voices that suck, it's the people directing the voices and the scripts they're given to read.
When Sonic Colours was released, a lot of people did want it to be the direction the series took going forward, because it was the best home console game the series had seen in long, long time and didn't have any extraneous elements stapled on. People were largely glad when Sonic Generations continued that direction. Generations was seen as the same type of game. Lost World wasn't. People weren't paying attention to who directed what. Sonic 2006 had actual hype around it at first, because it was a return to the basic Sonic gameplay of SA1 and SA2 on a fancy new system, after the disappointing Heroes and Shadow. It got bad reviews because it sucked. Just like Sonic Forces got bad reviews because it sucked. (See also: Sonic Boom, Sonic Lost World.) This is different from the New Super Mario Bros. series, where from a hardcore fan perspective it might be disappointing that all four are so similar, but each one is still an expertly crafted game. They all reviewed well, sold incredibly well and became evergreen, crowd pleasing games in each system's library. I don't think there's been any mainstream backlash against Sonic Colours. I don't think the mainstream tends to think about Sonic Colours much at all - it's a decade old Wii game that has never been re-released and didn't leave much of a footprint on the video game landscape. The only people who really still spend any time thinking about it are Sonic fans, where it seems for the most part that the people who don't like it now are the same people who didn't like it then. It's not worth being concerned over what other fans like or dislike.
My post was from the perspective of a fan though; your premise is assuming that I'm talking mainstream, I don't care about the mainstream, I care about how the Sonic fanbase feels because those are the people who spread the words of this game through word of mouth. And I'm fairly certain nobody posting on this forum is speaking from the perspective of a casual or general gamer either. We're all literally Sonic fans, why wouldn't we concern ourselves what the fanbase thinks when we literally all have to share similar spaces.
Agreed! And even from a "fan perception" perspective, New Super Mario Bros. was initially well-received. It was the first new 2D Mario game in over a decade, and NES nostalgia was in full bloom. Then NSMB Wii was popular enough that when the Game Grumps played it and criticized it for being too bland and not having much of its own identity, they caught a lot of flack for it. But in 2012, Nintendo released NSMB2 on the 3DS and NSMBU as the closest thing to a flagship game their new console would have. THAT'S when the backlash really hit hard, as even a lot of the people who'd liked the first two games felt like Nintendo was making the same game over and over again, and was running the concept into the ground. I wish Lost World and Forces could've been so lucky.
New Super Mario Bros. U wasn't good at showing off the Wii U. New console launch titles need to either have wow factor or show off new experiences, sell the audience on why they should part with a few hundred bucks. It's always a good idea to have a familiar crowd pleaser at launch, but it shouldn't get the spotlight. From a fan perspective it was repetitive for NSMBU to launch so close to New Super Mario Bros. 2. But in the real world, only the most hardcore fan would own both a 3DS and a Wii U and buy both games in close proximity. The seeming glut of New Super Mario Bros. games ended up just being one per console, before they moved on to the fresh and inventive Super Mario Maker. It's funny looking at the most scathing reviews of New Super Mario Bros. 2 (largely agreed to be the weakest of the series) on metacritic. They're all a variation of "There's no denying that it's a great game, with all the unparalleled skill and care we've come to expect from the Mario series. But we've seen it all before. 7/10." Imagine if the worst entry in the Sonic series was "Great game, but too similar to Sonic 3. 7/10." I don't think it's good to be too pre-occupied with dividing fans into groups, "X thinks Y because they're a Z fan". We're all here as individuals with our own opinions, engaging with each other as individuals, over a common interest. We're here to talk about Sonic games and media with Sonic fans, not about Sonic fans with Sonic fans.
Then tell that to literally everyone else here on this site, because the subject will eventually come up when talking about Sonic games and media with other Sonic fans because not every Sonic fan is necessarily a fan of the same things. That's kind of what being part of a fanbase entails, so I don't get how you think we can't talk about Sonic fans when...that's literally what everyone here does. Fanbases are not hiveminds who just like one universal thing.
I think you're arguing for the same thing: Fanbases are made up of individuals who have their own opinions and perspectives, and while it can be interesting from a sociological perspective to notice how things trend, we shouldn't get too hung up on defining ourselves or others by which "era" is our favorite or when we got into the series. This has, at times, been something I know I've been guilty of. I've over-discussed fandom divisions, to the detriment of my own perspective. And one problem with doing that, I worry, is that talking about how galvanized the fanbase is might run the risk of splitting it MORE. For instance, one of the big focuses in my SA2 video was sort of explaining how a whole new generation of Sonic fans, many of whom had no memory of Sega as a hardware maker, defined their fandom based on this game. And while I still think that's a fascinating facet of the fandom and I don't regret bringing it up, I do kind of wish I'd explained it more as a generalization, and not as something quite so well-defined. I've seen people who watched that video comment about how that describes them PERFECTLY, that they've realized they're "Adventure Fans" exclusively, and that's... I mean, I don't think it's really a GOOD to assign a label to your fandom like that. But you don't even need a label; I know for a fact that I'VE done similar things, too. Sometimes my first instinct is to just assume that because I consider Sonic 3 & Knuckles my favorite game, I must have the "correct opinions" about story approach and tone and even gameplay that you'd "expect" me to have. It's tribalism, pure and simple, and being mindful of how it affects you, thinking through your opinions and making sure you really feel the way you think you do, can be really important.
