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How would you remake Sonic Adventure for today?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Sonic5993, Nov 27, 2020.

  1. No disrespect, but you can't really just come in here, call people out on their opinions and then just not provide an answer of your own.

    If changing so much about Sonic Adventure is such a taboo thing, then what about the game should actually change to bring it into 2020?

    Because I can tell you, I love Sonic Adventure to death, warts and all. But if we actually want people beyond the ones who played it in 1998 to like the game, something has gotta give.

    I cannot see a Sonic Adventure as it currently is doing any better than just getting the standard average to mediocre reviews that this series usually gets, and is that what we really want to aim for?

    I want people to see how special this game is, and that might mean we have to compromise on some things.
     
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  2. Laura

    Laura

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    I dont want a remake. We've had nostalgia pandering for a decade and it won't be any better just because they are pandering for the Dreamcast. We need new games.

    What I would like to see is a digital double pack of SA1 and SA2 which is a definitive version. Fixed lighting, Dreamcast texture toggle option for Adventure 1, a free play mode for Adventure 2 where you can play as all character types in their respective stages (Sonic, Shadow, Amy, Metal Sonic). 1080p, 60FPS and widescreen. Touch up some of the most glaring collision bugs in Adventure 1. Maybe a remastered soundtrack option like in FF10 remaster. Perhaps some refinements for Chao Garden stats to make it less grindy.

    I know most of this can already be done on PC but it would be nice to have on console. I really think Adventure would benefit from a really high quality re-release like this. We have Whitehead's Sonic 1, 2, CD and the Switch emulations, but nothing for Adventure.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2020
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  3. Wildcat

    Wildcat

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    I love SA but some stuff was poorly done. If those things can be updated for a better experience why not? It’s not being disrespectful. All the gameplay had potential. Certain things just need reworking.
    I really like this idea but it could also be a little too different. Maybe more suitable for a SA3. It can definitely work though if they want to reimagine what SA could have been.
     
  4. Sid Starkiller

    Sid Starkiller

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    Thanks, man. My broken mouse is pissing me off, I needed a laugh.
     
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  5. ChaddyFantome

    ChaddyFantome

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    A Sonic Adventure Remake would have to respect the intent and design sensibilities of the original instead of trying to be another game to meet a particular ideological bent regarding the series.
    Sonic Adventure is what it is, and the goal in remaking it I feel should be to take it and make it a better version of itself as oppose to something else.

    All 6 gameplay styles should be brought back.
    Yes, including Big. I feel that not many changes would need to be made to improve them as people say. Well save for one.
    Of the 6, oddly enough, I feel Tails' is the one that will be hardest to adjust since its problems are far more ingrained into its concept than the others.

    Alright so first thing I would do is of course add the ability to skip cutscenes.
    This is something the DX port has over the DC original and it is a godsend since SA1s cutscenes have a problem with repeating things too much. This is something that can't be fixed on a fundamental level while respecting the games' original intent, so this is a very important thing to have.

    Additionally, I would add the ability to choose between an Adventure Mode and a Simple Mode when playing the game.
    Adventure Mode
    would be the game progression as you remember it.
    Simple Mode would be the game, but you go from Level to Level and cutscene to cutscene.

    Depending on who you ask, this might sound odd, but I am of a firm belief that while neat in concept, the overworld progression in the Adventure Fields ultimately hurt the game more than it helped as it greatly damaged the games' pacing. That said it is also one of the key standout aspects of the game. As a compromise, I recommend making it optional.
    An alternative option would also be to ask the player if they want to return to the Adventure Field after they beat a level or get past a cutscene or not, as well as an options in the menu to go directly to the Adventure Field with your character of choice. Something similar to how you can use the Level Select Screen to visit the Chao World in SA2.

    In terms of controls, I would make Sonic play about the same, though I would make his Light Speed Dash work like it does in SA2. It would also be assigned to its own button, like Shadow the Hedgehog does. The Crystal Ring Upgrade would have to be replaced with Something else though. I don't think it's much of a downside.

    Knuckles would have his controls from SA2 directly ported over. It's simply a better control scheme with the superior dig, the Drill Dive for descending quickly, better combat, etc.
    I would also make the missions in Knuckles Stages each limit the radar by 1. I understand that the topic of the Emerald Radar is a divisive subject (even though I believe it shouldn't be), but at the bare minimum, I find it hard to not at least concede to the radar being too powerful in SA1 for the levels they are in. I think making the extra mission versions limit the radar is at the very least an easy enough compromise to make.
    I would also make it so Tikal's hint system is more like SA2s. Tikal simply flying in the right direction trivialised the game play too much for my liking.

    Amy really just needs to be made less slow for the most part. In addition I would give her a Hammer swing attack she can use while Running. Her Hammer Vault would instead be used by holding and releasing the button.
    Big I would give him elements from his Heroes portrayal. Make him less clumsy in terms of control. Let him belly flop. It doesn't need to be a direct transfer, but I think if Big had more interesting controls that would make it fun to play around as him when you aren't fishing, he would be an easier sell to people.

    Gamma I would just make his timer more strict. The timer is a joke I the base game. Additionally/Alternatively, I would also suggest making him have a health bar as his timer instead of an actual timer, so that the player is punished for taking damage in a way that matters.

    Tails...oy.. Not sure what to so about this one.
    I suppose one thing we can do to start is having death plains everywhere where Tails gets caught in a storm and blown away when he spends too much time in them. Tails' ability to trivialise any and all level design is a massive problem with his playthrough, especially since it repeats so much of Sonic's both level and cutscene wise. Ofc course we would also make the Sonic you race less of a joke.
    Tails flight even then would still need to be nerfed I feel.

    On the note about repeated sections, The Tornado 1 Flight sequences in both Sonic and Tails' stories should be scrapped altogether. Replace them with a cutscene instead. The Tornado 2 sequences are all we need. (Also maybe make it so Tails doesn't fight Chaos 4 either. its a redundant bossfight.)

    One of the bigger problems I have with SA1 is how there is no real incentive to collect rings and hold on to em in that game, which I find to be a pretty big flaw.
    In the Classics, your incentive was either access to Bonus Stages, Shields or access to Special Stages for Chaos Emeralds. This acted as a way to encourage players to play well and rewarded curious eyes that explored the around the corner for goodies.
    Later games would supplement this via things like the Ranking System as well as other mechanics, but SA1 doesn't really have this.
    Additionally, SA1 isn't really designed in a way that would compliment a Ranking System, So I believe the Bonus Stage system like S3&K/Mania could be implemented in some fashion to compensate.
    Alternatively, they could simply have a shop in the Adventure Field where you buy these extras like unlockable characters or skins for the Tornado, etc with the Rings you collect at the end of a stage.
    Now all those rings you collect actually matter for something. (Yes I know the Chao Garden exists but it didn't have much to get. You also might not care about Chao. Maybe take some cues from SA2 and have unlockable themes?)

    On that note, I would port over some elements from the SA2 Chao Garden over to the SA1 Chao Garden, such as the ability to get Skeleton Dogs that remove animals.

    The Adventure Fields should have a bunch of unlockable extras and secrets for the player to collect/unlock as incentive to mess around in em, which I feel is something the original SA1 doesn't really have much of.
    This could be the games' chance to let players unlock characters from other (future?) games, alternate costumes/skins or even abilities, similar to Generation's shop. Maybe even push the envelope a bit.
    Additional characters could also make early cameos like Cream did in the SADX port. For example, we could have Rouge make a cameo after the Chaos attack in the beginning of Sonic's story talking about how dangerous the creature seemed. Maybe have the GUN Commander cameo in his car commenting on the creature looking familiar.
    You could even have a multiplayer mode. would be neat.

    Lastly, I would reimplement the Hidden Palace Zone and have it be the way to unlock Super Sonic in the post game in normal levels. Because that voice clip tease needs to be vindicated damnit!

    There are probably other things I am no thinking of, but I think these at the very least do a good job of sprucing the game up in ways that respect the games' intent while remedying flaws and making general improvements.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2020
  6. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    The sooner one stops caring about what the populace thinks is the dos and don'ts of a Sonic game and just accept how to make Sonic Adventure the best version of itself, the better. And I was going to eventually share my thoughts, but since you asked I'll bite:

    1 ) Keep the characters, but flesh them out
    All six characters could use some touch ups and changes, but out of all of them to need it the least it'd easily be Sonic. I don't think Sonic's gameplay needs to change any; it's pretty much solid enough on it's own. Sure, better physics and collision could be the main concern, but that's understood with a remake in the first place, isn't it? Other than that, I can say replacing the Lightspeed Dash with it's instant form from SA2 being a plus, and setting it to a separate button while we're at it.

    Knuckles and Gamma are the most realized of the gameplay styles outside of Sonic, so while they could use some buffs, they don't need a whole lot to be somewhere comfy. Knuckles could use some bigger maps (I'll get to that in a bit) and SA2's Spiral Dive, and Gamma possibly with more challenging enemies as their game progresses, but there's not a lot to say that the game doesn't already satisfy in their styles. They're simple, arcadey and fun enough.

    Amy's a bit more complicated. Giving her a speed buff would be good (needed, even), but to even it out, why not give her more stealthy moments in her stages, if even a sneak (slow-walk) button? I've thought about giving Amy her own version of Speed Highway, where she could sidle along skyscraper walls while Zero tries to spot her from inside the building, or moments where to evade Zero you have to go over him on the thin glass, and walk carefully to prevent it from shattering and getting his attention. Things like this would be good in helping her style stand out.

    Tails and Big are where we get a little more drastic and start to change things some, but still not too severely. Tails I would first nerf the flight a bit (because damn does it need it), and I'd probably recommend dropping the 'racing a rubberband character' angle in favor of 'racing the clock'. This would mean we can put Tails in less constricted areas, and could even give him different routes to take than Sonic (or Eggman) to meet the same end (again, more on that later).

    As for Big, well.. I'd just center his gameplay about catching Froggy with or without the fishing rod, and focus harder on his level design using his ability to swim to hidden areas, leaving fishing to be a sub-game much like Hedgehog Hammer and the like. This would streamline his levels a lot and honestly make them a lot more fun, because Big's underwater areas are fun to swim around in in the original game, and I think are very underutilized in favor of the gimmick they went with.

    2 ) Add more to every level
    Sonic Adventure's level design for the most part is pretty good, but I do think if there's anything a remake would be good for it'd be to add more. Not as in to extend the length of the levels by any exaggerated amount, but in giving more alternate routes. Sonic's earlier zones pale in comparison to his later ones due to their linearity, but a remake is the perfect chance to take the existing layouts and give them more options.

    [​IMG]

    Say you go through your first loop in Emerald Coast, and now there's a bit more platforming to do other than holding forward in the beginning. Not enough to be tedious (the springs obviously help you up most of it), but it solidifies something you have to do a bit more before hitting that ramp that takes you to the massive curve. Meanwhile, you have a hidden path on the right, where if you hit the water at a good speed, you can hydroplane towards that bridge, which will give you a boost to a new area.

    [​IMG]

    These new areas would be playgrounds that either highly speed up your progression through the stage OR are just there to be fun alternate routes, and would eventually find their way sliding back into the main path. I feel like doing things like this in every zone would give new players more option than players of the original, and veteran players something to look for that isn't the norm.

    Doing this kind of thing to every stage would make exploration more fun and rewarding, while not ruining the intent of the original level design. You could also use these moments in fleshing out the levels as excuses to make more areas other characters can explore too, and possibly give them more levels to work with.

    On that note,

    3 ) Flesh out the hub worlds, but streamline their progression
    Sonic Adventure's entire atmosphere dwells on it's.. well, adventure aspects. And I think out of all the places in the game that could use the most renovation, it'd be the hubs. Mystic Ruins is mysterious, Station Square is cozy, and the Egg Carrier is foreboding, so I would do all I could to enhance those aspects of it.

    It seems people are very mixed on hubs in Sonic, but I think that it's just a means of doing it better rather than throwing it away. Every hub is already a big canvas to dash around in, but it'd be much more suitable to the game itself if it had more slopes and areas to platform or explore. Another thing it could use is more NPCs and general things to do in the hubs, much like Unleashed; let you talk to people, interact with the environment in more minute time-waster ways (like buying food or playing minigames), even set up a way to do some sort of small missions if you're in the mood for it.

    Most people who hate the hubs in Sonic have a problem with how it affects the pacing, but I again think that's something that can be fixed too. Sonic Adventure takes some pretty unnecessary turns in where it wants you to go in the hub to progress the story, and throughout multiple campaigns it really asks for a lot of back and forthing, doing a lot of the same things in another characters' story. I think this is nothing some streamlining couldn't handle (like making the "Sonic chases Amy" segment of his campaign not be so all over the place), and the other issue can be resolved just by a remake allowing you to specialize moments in each campaign rather than have a character retread another campaign's steps.

    ----

    So there's the three things I would do in an SA1 remake that doesn't require removing or replacing anything with drastic changes. I very much believe Sonic Adventure doesn't need that, as I think the only thing it does need is further refinement, and if anything, additions over removals. If you really want a game without all of this then you don't really want a remake of Sonic Adventure, which is my point. You'd be better off asking for a different game, lol.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2020
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  7. I really do wish it was that easy, but it's not. If the populace don't like the game, the game isn't gonna sell, and if it doesn't sell, Sega won't see any reason to revisit the style anymore :V
    Sucks when the well-being of your series is reliant upon people who may not actually care all that much about it doesn't it.
     
  8. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    The populace doesn't hate Sonic Adventure. If you've convinced yourself that then you've probably been too absorbed in the more jaded part of the Sonic fanbase (forums, especially this one, are amongst that haha), or are giving too much credit to video game reviewers from the 2010s, most of whom were only there to make pot-shots anyways and not give much critical thought to anything with the hedgehog's face on it lol.

    People still often look back fondly to both Adventure titles, and the recent uprise in nostalgia for the late 5th / early 6th gen of video games has only made that more apparent. Many people who remember the Adventures and haven't played them in years are often people who remember these games being awesome. Even if they went back and played them now only to be disappointed in their shoddy aging, they still walked in remembering what it had in it and loving it despite that. Why would this be any different, if this time it were actually much better handled?
     
  9. Taylor

    Taylor

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    I think SA1 is so much a product of its time that completely remaking it would feel weird. It's basically a Sonic game with a bunch of popular 90s stuff (tamagotchi, fishing games, cinematic RPG storyline) thrown into a blender. I would just release a port of it without DX's fucked up aesthetics and call it a day. I have fun with the game but it has a lot of issues on a conceptual level that can really be forgiven by the fact that it was their first 3D game and most devs had no clue what they were doing back then
     
  10. Big's problems wasn't that he was slow, it was that in addition to that his objective wasn't conveyed very well and the controls for it weren't taught as well. It would have be streamlined a lot to be not as frustrating. Even if I know what to do with Big's levels now, I can't exactly say I look forward to playing as him on subsequent playthroughs.

    Never said they hated it, just said IF the game doesn't do well and with how Sonic game reception usually is, you know that's a very likely occurrence. And even if game reviewers don't give much critical thought to Sonic games, the fact of the matter is that they're the ones who influence the populace on if the game is worth it or not. It took years for Unleashed to shed the stigma of being "another bad game" because of it's middling review scores that were completely unjustified.

    And here's the thing; there's nothing wrong with marketing based on nostalgia, lord knows this series is no stranger to that, but even in most of those retrospectives people have admitted that the game is extremely flawed in many ways that ultimately drag the overall product down. So that begs the question, how should those flaws be addressed.

    I'm not saying they SHOULD just up and change Sonic Adventure, just saying that if they did, I wouldn't be surprised by it.
     
  11. So I'm gathering two main conclusions from this.

    #1. The people who want an adventure remake aren't the adventure fans, and pretty much just want a new game

    #2. People are still lashing out at big the cat for his gameplay style. Really? I'm curious how many people there are who hate big and have never played heroes. He was bada** in that game, and also was a literal demigod with the flight glitch.

    My response to these points are:

    #1. The changes some of you want to make to the game aren't even just changes. They're a pitch for a whole different game entirely. If we're making a hypothetical adventure remake, it has to have everything, including big the cat.

    #2. Which brings me to this. Whywhywhywhywhy do so many people insist on using big as the poster child for everything wrong with the adventure games? Big is a perfectly serviceable character, it's just his gameplay was a flop. I think his involvement in the overall story makes perfect sense. He's the complete antithesis to sonic, and just like a butterfly effect in the real world, sonic and friends' actions affect big's life. But while everyone else is running around like there's no tomorrow, we get to see how an easy going, laid back 18 year old guy deals with the chaos, and how he won't even let a literal god stop him from protecting his only pet.

    And for the gameplay, I love the concept of fishing. Keeping in theme with the story, big's gameplay is also the antithesis to sonic's. While sonic is all about getting faster and faster, big is about slowing down, and even stopping completely. As for the actual execution... yeah, it needs an overhaul. I think something like this would work:



    This is Fishing Resort, for Wii. Fun fact, the company responsible for this game is Prope, which was founded by none other than Yuji Naka in Sonic 06's wake. I love that so much :D

    With the anime humans, and the emerald coast-esque setting, it gives off Sonic adventure vibes, no? Not to mention that it actually teaches you how to play the game, unlike the thread's namesake. This game is super fleshed out and pretty solid, and has become a classic in my family. If I ever found myself determining how big would work in adventure going forward, I'd point to this. I think it's the perfect example of easy, fun fishing that works how it's supposed to.

    Who knows? Maybe one day big will regain the fanbase's trust and rise out of meme status. A guy can dream, right? Anyway, that's my pointless ramble about this odd thread. I've definitely started something now :p
     
  12. Ritz

    Ritz

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    I don't know, I already played Sonic Adventure. What's really being asked for is that Sega recapture the spirit of the time, and the ambition and culture of a corporation with hope for the future. There's no faking that, so just give it to Toshihiro Nagoshi and tell him to go wild. Remove every character but Gamma and turn it into a full-fledged shooter. Make a Chao Garden game with procedurally generated phenotypes. Spin it off into a mobile Station Square dating sim chronicling the burger shop romance and the secret of the statue. If we're not explicitly making the game crazier or stupider it's a waste of time.
     
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  13. This is a case where narrative cohesion and gameplay cohesion are kind of at odds with each other; sure, that's the THEMATIC reason behind Big's inclusion...but it doesn't change the fact you're being asked to play the antithesis of what many people are buying the game for. It's like if I went to a hamburger restaurant, asked for a hamburger, and they gave me a hotdog with the explanation that it's Hotdog night.

    I get the idea behind Big's inclusion, but it's implemented in the worst way possible and it doesn't endear me to him at all. If he's designed to be a cooldown and easygoing, then maybe they should have actually conveyed that better? Maybe not force him onto the player?

    I don't want Big removed because I'll admit he's part of the experience, but at the same time, he's part of the reason I don't really replay Adventure often outside of Sonic's stages and I shouldn't have to feel that way.
     
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  14. SuperSonicRider

    SuperSonicRider

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    No one in this thread even said they disliked Big as a character???? Like you & others said, it's his gameplay that falls flat.
     
  15. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    Yeah, while I wouldn't be that excited for an Adventure remake, I don't see the point of making it a boost game or especially making it have a classic aesthetic. Sorry @Josh I usually agree with your ideas!

    It's Sonic Adventure and for better or worse it's what it is. I really dislike remakes which go so far from the original game that they might as well have been something completely different.
     
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  16. Josh

    Josh

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    And I'm one of those weirdos who usually prefers a remake to be something different. To wit, FFVII Remake was one of my favorite games this year, for that exact reason.

    No worries though, different strokes! :thumbsup:

    Having said that, even I don't think it'd be a good idea to promote that "Mania-verse Adventure" idea _as_ a direct Sonic Adventure remake.
    You'd definitely have to call it something else. (It's too bad "Sonic Mania Adventure" is taken. :V)
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2020
  17. LucasMadword

    LucasMadword

    LucasSaturn Member
    I think people are misinterpreting the word "remake" with all the categories it can cover. I count FFVII Remake as a "reimagining", taking the core ideas, and changing it to fit within [current year] standards, adding in and removing things from the original formula, as if the reimagining was the first version of it made. To me, the Crash NSane Trilogy is a remake, whilst FFVII is a reimagining.

    To me, it goes, remaster, remake, reimagining. A remaster is basically just a graphic upscale. A remake it taking the original, making slight tweaks to the formula, and overhauling the graphics. A reimagining is as if you were making the game from scratch, free to change major portions to bring it up to modern-day wants and needs.

    In my opinion, I don't want Sonic Adventure as a remake if they do it. Some of the varied ideas in this thread is why. I don't really enjoy the hub worlds, and really only enjoy a portion of the other gameplay styles. Most of the gameplay styles were to show off the Dreamcast as a console and it's flexibility in development; a modern-day version wouldn't have to show that off, so a reimagining could make it so the game focuses on it's strongest elements whilst not being scared to throw out elements that don't work.

    I don't think any idea in SA1 are *bad*, I just think their execution on the whole were rushed and could definitely need polish. You can argue for or against any inclusion, even Big the Cat, but I think the main thing should be only including the things they can actually pull off. Hub worlds aren't *inherently* bad, and just because I didn't enjoy it in SA1 doesn't mean if it was implemented differently I wouldn't want them. Same with Big the Cat, I'm sure there's ways to implement his playstyle in a better way that wouldn't garner as much hate. But as soon as we get to the point that you're not allowed to change anything because, "it's not SA1 then!!!1!", then it becomes an issue.
     
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  18. Its a lot less egregious with FF7, since its changes are as I mentioned, an integral part of the narrative its trying to pull. That and there's no guarantee that its going to stick the landing.

    As good as I think SA1 is, a lot of its elements are ultimately superfluous. Its no longer on the dreamcast, so why adhere to that and restrict yourself?


    I suppose the different types of modern updates make sense: remaster, remake, and reimagining.
     
  19. LucasMadword

    LucasMadword

    LucasSaturn Member
    Oh for sure, I should've made that clearer in my post. If you make a change to the game, it doesn't necessarily mean that change is the right thing to do. I think at that point, any changes should be judiciously considered, at least with FFVII it makes sense the changes they made, and it feels to me as if they thought them through. A lot of decisions Sonic Team makes seem to be not fully considered, or at best rushed (just look at Sonic Forces, imo the only reason a lot of the choices were made in that game was time crunch, not because it would improve the gameplay at all).

    Any change you make, or anything you keep, needs to be fully thought through and fleshed out, so that even if someone doesn't like that element, they can still justify it's inclusion. Some of the arguments for some features being included are, "because it was in the original game". If that's the reasoning, then it actively is detrimental to the new modern recreation of the game. I'd rather Sonic Team have free reign to make any changes they see necessary (so long as they're actually *trying* to make a good game lol), even if that means making changes that hardcore fans might not entirely agree with.
     
  20. ...yeah I never mentioned a single soul in this thread as targeting big the cat. I did say that some people essentially want a new game, but no one in here claimed big was responsible for sonic adventure not being perfect. I guess I should've specified, but I meant that when people brought up big, it reminded me of the meta fans who only keep big around for the "lolz". This is part of the reason why the sonic franchise is the way it is. Cause people just refuse to let go lol. Forget big's fishing gameplay, forget guns, forget 06, forget werehogs, and just move on. If we can, one day, accomplish that, then the sky will be the limit for where this franchise (and games like adventure) can go.