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The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Or is he?!?!

    But seriously, is he? Sonic Adventure Sonic came from the Mega Drive Sonic, before this two worlds thing, and was born on Earth's Christmas Island. Then Iizuka changed everything with Sonic Colours, splitting the worlds and changing past details such as, according to Ian Flynn, having Team Dark not be a thing and them having no association with G.U.N. So can we safely say this is the same Sonic since Sonic Adventure? Or is it the same Sonic since Sonic Colours?
     
  2. SuperSonicRider

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    I thought Sonic was characterized a lot better in Forces compared to Colors, Gens, & LW & would go so far to say it's one of his better voiced characterizations in the series as a whole, honestly...

    To me, the thing that made Colors' & LW's cutscenes feel a little awkward on re-watch wasn't that the jokes were "meme-bait", but just that they often felt drawn out and/or awkward (like, there's one joke about ice cream that didn't really land in Colors, or the "Eggman, you bite!" cutscene in Lost World). In Forces tho, the quips are kept briefer and seem to just be put in to further characterize Sonic. Stuff like the "oh sure, don't even bother to ask how I am!" when Knuckles calls the custom character after they rescue Sonic, or the most of the dialogue when Sonic disrupts Silver's fight with Infinite just feel a lot better paced than some cutscenes in Colors/LW. To me, it made him feel a lot more like what the writers seemed to have been going for when they wrote Colors in the first place. It's just unfortunate that it's overshadowed by how disjointed the overall plot of Forces is (& I honestly feel like this is the main problem with Forces' story, rather than the tone or anyone's individual characterization save for arguably Tails).

    In TSR tho? I do find a good amount of the lines to be a little silly, but I think it's worth mentioning that they seem to make Sonic himself be the butt of jokes rather than the characters he attempts to trash-talk. It didn't bother me much playing through it, but I get why people dislike this, especially within the context of the 2010s decade of Sonic not being very story-focused.
     
  3. big smile

    big smile

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    Anyone got more info on this? Not head about this one and it sounds intriguing. Thanks!
     
  4. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    26:20
     
  5. big smile

    big smile

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    Hmmmm... Sega gave Ian notes to say that Team Dark doesn't exist and Shadow/Rouge/Omega aren't a team nor friends, and Team Dark was just branding for specific games. I guess that makes sense as they've never acted like Team Dark is their "full time" group in any of the games. Them not being friends makes less sense, but we only see them operate a team when circumstances conspire, so I guess it works. (Although Rouge's folder in Sonic Dash mentions both Team Dark and GUN so....)

    However, Sega also gave Ian notes to say that Shadow isn't a part of GUN and he only works with them when it suits his aims. That makes less sense as we saw him become a GUN agent. I don’t think they mention GUN in Forces Episode Shadow, but from the way Rouge contacts him, it's implied he's an agent.
     
  6. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    And bare in mind he's saying he's been told this is the case in-game, not in IDW's world.

    So frankly, I'm content to say Sonic Colours onwards is the Two Worlds Continuity, separate from the One Earth Continuity of Sonic the Hedgehog to Sonic Unleashed/Sonic and the Black Knight. All those games before hand, where they had a somewhat consistent continuity with one another? Didn't happen, merely similar events in a continuity where Sonic and cast wandered over from their world to the Human World separately together.

    I mean, they can't even go two games without messing with the canon of another TWC game (Sonic Generations and Sonic Forces) or keep their own stories straight, so who knows how bastardised their Adventure Era events look like at this point.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2020
  7. Pengi

    Pengi

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    Was "Team Dark" ever used in story dialogue? Aside from games like Sonic Free Riders and Team Sonic Racing, where they have to form a team with a name for a sporting event.

    In SA2 Rouge was working as a spy directly for the President (and investigating GUN). Her Sonic Heroes, Sonic Battle and Sonic Riders profiles say she works for the President too, and we see the same thing in her Sonic Channel comic. Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 seems to be the outlier, with her working for GUN.

    Her profile on the Shadow the Hedgehog game website seems to say that she's working for the president, but also mentions her being a reliable ally to GUN.

    In Sonic Rivals 2 she's freelancing for an unknown (to her) client. In Sonic Colours DS she's checking out Eggman's theme park for a client.

    So it seems that she's a freelancer in general, often working for the President, sometimes GUN and sometimes other clients.
     
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  8. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Nope. No mention of Team Dark's name anywhere. Only the fact that Rouge and Omega only ever appear when Shadow's involved in the events, really.

    If we look at the exact quote:
    So Shadow, Rouge and Omega aren't friends, nor an actual team.

    Just three people who keep working together on Team-based tasks and with Rouge vowing to stand by her associate even if the world turns against him, with no affiliation with G.U.N. despite Rogue being referred by them as an Agent and Shadow being mentioned to have completed a test "a while ago" to join G.U.N in Sonic the Hedgehog (2006). Rogue also has no affiliation with G.U.N. despite being a reliable ally to them. So, y'know, affiliation as an ally, since both work with the President of the United Federation.

    So things have changed regardless.
     
  9. big smile

    big smile

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    @BlackHole Out of interest, is there a transcript of Ian's comments? (I'm guessing you probably just typed that out for the quote, but I thought I double check!) Thanks!
     
  10. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I typed it out, but I can probably go through and type out the whole thing if you want.
     
  11. Starduster

    Starduster

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    We get it, you're nettled about two worlds and the crap continuity of late. Lots of us are. But making spiteful arguments that Colours onwards are separate from what came before only feeds into perception that they ought to fracture things. It's better to just disown things that induce continuity snarls outright and send that message instead of feeding into the mindset of retcons.

    I was always of the impression that GUN was a government organisation. Are they in fact are private military for hire?
     
  12. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    It's not spiteful? Spiteful would be saying things like "Iizuka's grand plan to drive the franchise into the ground".

    It's honestly how I feel they're going with it, especially with the recent claims the Two World Continuity has been how it's been since the 90s indicating they're trying to Orwellian their own history, since Yuji Naka confirmed it was one world in 2011 from his point of view. Bastardising the Adventure Era genuinely seems exactly like something they'll do to me, or just retconning them into Sonic X's version of events, since that's got the TWC in instead of the OEC.
     
  13. big smile

    big smile

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    No need. Thanks for offering though! :)
     
  14. Pengi

    Pengi

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    A news report in Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity refers to GUN as an international security organization. Which fits them being "Guardian Units of the Nations".

    Other games' character profiles etc. refer to them as the federal government's army - 連邦政府軍. (The Japanese word for army is 軍 "gun".)

    SA2's backstory, which the guide book elaborated on, is that the President of 50 years ago initiated Project Shadow to research immortality. When the info was leaked to GUN they went rogue, shut down and evacuated the ARK, and killed everyone involved with Project Shadow, covering it all up as a response to a biohazard accident.

    This is what Rouge was investigating in Sonic Adventure 2. So it seems that she was working directly for the President, but independently from GUN (who tried to kill her when she stole the Chaos Emeralds, referring to her only as "the intruder").
     
  15. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    The Adventure Era does paint her as an Agent of the PotUF:

    Sonic Adventure 2: Rouge sends regular transmissions to the President directly.


    And Shadow says she's a Specialist Agent for the Federal Government's President.


    Sonic Heroes: When left idle, she makes a comment about not hearing from the President in a while. This is also in the Japanese version, so it's not a localisation addition either.


    Shadow the Hedgehog: To quote Pengi...

    Sonic Battle: Rouge is sent out by the President to investigate the Gizoid:


    Sonic the Hedgehog (2006): gives us an implied connection due the President personally requesting Shadow retrieve Rouge from Robotnik's base.


    Basically, everything's indicating she works for the President of the United Federation personally, with the odd freelancing gig to supplement her jewellery obsession when she's not acting under orders of the President, as evidenced by Sonic Heroes, where she looks for "The Doctor's treasure" and before she finds Shadow, while later musing that she hasn't heard from the President in a while. Literally every game in the Adventure Era she appears in has some indication of her ties to the President.

    And considering the "Federal Government's President" is also the boss of G.U.N, which was mentioned to work for said Federal Government, I'm fairly certain that's affiliation, despite them having never having affiliation to G.U.N.

    It's like saying a person has no affiliation to a company, despite working for that company's boss and working with the company in question.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
  16. Pengi

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    It's obvious what Ian meant. He clarified on Twitter:

     
  17. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    I'm not saying she worked for G.U.N.

    I'm saying she worked for the President of the United Federation, G.U.N.'s boss, and with G.U.N when needed.

    Even then, that's affiliation, which he was told was never the case.
     
  18. Pengi

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    Why quibble over semantics? It's been clarified.
     
  19. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    Because it changes their characters arbitrarily.

    Where Shadow was a distant but loyal friend who would blow through hordes of robots and hunt down mad scientists from the future simply because his friend needs help, he's now a complete lone wolf that doesn't work alone.

    Where Rogue was once a Government Agent working directly for the President with a penchant for Treasure Hunting, apparently she's now some random bounty hunter that just takes contracts and works with Shadow randomly constantly, not because they're friends backing one another up.

    Rouge: "Even if the whole world becomes your enemy... I'll be at your side. Remember that."
    Shadow: "I will."

    Totally not friends. Just associates, who aren't even an actual team.

    I can agree that Team Dark is not a name in-universe, but saying they aren't a team, despite them constantly working together to the point if one's involved, the others generally will be, that they aren't actually friends, despite the games before showing deep loyalty between them, and that they have no affiliation with G.U.N., even when one was the Federal Government's President's Elite Agent and worked with the Federal Government's army in question, and another was an actual agent for G.U.N., with only Omega being able to actually claim no affiliation, doesn't sit right at all to me.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
  20. Pengi

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    Rouge is usually described as a treasure hunter first and foremost. The US Sonic Heroes and Sonic Rivals 2 manuals describe her as part-time government spy, so this isn't the first time the idea's been put out there. In SA2 she's getting jewels in return for her research on Project Shadow, which suggests she isn't a typical salaried employee. In Sonic Rivals 2 she's explicitly doing freelance work, so the concept is at least 13 years old already.

    Ultimately, Sega wants to be able to use these characters without having to bring a human military force into the story.

    Shadow's current characterisation doesn't make much sense to me, but I never particularly saw Shadow, Rouge and Omega as friends. Rouge has some affection for Shadow, but it's rarely returned. Omega probably doesn't understand the concept of friendship, or have any use for it.