The problem there is that they're really inconsistent, since the Elite Agent Rouge promotional brought back G.U.N and Team Dark. Meaning yes, they're still a thing.
So uh..., this goes back to something I mentioned a *while* ago, but now that the "World of Sonic" book has been seen,...there's...basically nothing to contradict the idea that Mania Sonic *is* an "alternate timeline," and that all "classic" events up until around Sonic Adventure also happened to "Modern Sonic", right? I mean, tbh, after thinking about at least a couple of things, I would be fine if they were just outright alternate dimensions or whatever, and the relevant "Classic" events happened in the "Modern" dimension some parallel way rather than exactly the same. But also...again, nothing seems to contradict the idea that these alternate "dimensions" were just a result of the Mania/Classic Sonic characters being pulled into a different outcome as a result of the events of Generations. This all combined with the fact that Christian Whitehead himself described Mania as being "Classic Sonic post-Generations" makes me think that this is what SEGA/Sonic Team/whoever was going for when establishing the "current" Classic Sonic as being from an "alternate dimension", but it's just poorly explained. (Which I guess is not unlike the "two worlds" thing!!! but still idk this seems like a valid enough explanation?)
But it's not a thing where fans think it matters. This is not a knock on Sonic Forces Speed Battle since I love the game, but fans want the mainline games and comics to acknowledge that tidbit and we know that at the moment that doesn't seem to be the case.
The World of Sonic book suggests the Classic games didn't happen on the Modern timeline, as they're absent completely and Sonic refers to Classic Sonic as being from an alternate dimension completely. Which is weird, since he calls the being the "Time Eater", not sure how a different dimension got dragged into the mix from the Time Eater. At least Doctor Who has the excuse of also travelling in space and bumping into spacial anomalies for their alternate dimensions...
I'm not trying to twist your words, you're just not understanding what my point is. The reason why I chose the Whills tidbit was because it was not something that he changed his mind like the Han Solo/Greedo thing. It was something he wanted to do from day one. George Lucas in all his prime and glory could not add that important piece of lore to the Original trilogy because he could not make it work within the stories of the movies, deadlines and budget. You say that you understand how much work it takes to do what you're asking, but then you call the devs lazy. But if you really knew then you should understand that when it comes to work/content creation there's always stuff you want to do, but can't because of reasons. And those reasons tend not to be because of laziness and incompetence or not putting enough effort. There's this sentiment that goes in fandoms that the creators of their favorite IPs don't know what they're doing and are sometimes even doing stuff to be malicious towards the fans. And sadly Sonic Team, but especially Iizuka-san take the brunt of those unfair criticisms. I've had the pleasure of meeting and spending time with him on several occasions, and trust me that he cares about Sonic and the franchise. And if you don't believe me then you can take the words of people like Aaron or the Mania Team and the praise they have given him and the rest of Sonic Team. I'm not asking you or anyone else reading this to suddenly like this two worlds things, the direction the franchise is taking or the quality of the games because Sonic Team consists of hard working people. Like I said, there's stuff that I downright don't like or hate. But the point I'm trying to make is that the criticisms don't have to turn into personal attacks like "lazy devs not putting in enough effort. "
I think this is a fine way to handle long-running franchises but it's usually done in a way that lets the audience know pretty clearly that the timeline has shifted. "Ultimate" Marvel, etc. Agreed wholeheartedly. "Lazy" is ironically the laziest feedback someone can give. In the case of modern Sonic it's not laziness that results in a laissez-faire attitude to lore, it's a very intentionally choice.
I'd have no problem with Iizuka or Modern Sonic Team if they weren't trying to force the two worlds concept in. But they are, and they've gone ahead with a new planet for Sonic Forces, not the usual Earth or Earth modification. I respect the efforts they're putting into the games, god knows I can't fathom programming, modelling, etc. myself. I can create so many ideas in a heartbeat: making them is a whole different beast. It's why if I had control of the Sonic franchise, I wouldn't dare alter those games like what Sonic Forces is doing with the Classic Sonic era, but write it in a way to send them off and bring back the singular continuity. It's easy, they actually have an established way to do this. But they're changing things arbitrarily. There's no benefit to two worlds, and all it does is wreck continuity and piss off the people who care. So, obviously, I'm annoyed with the people making that change. I was annoyed when I learned George Lucas altered the Star Wars Han Shot First scene, even though I grew up with the altered scene. If there was some benefit that could only be gained from the Two Worlds, then yeah, fine. But instead, all it's done is cause more questions than answers, and all we're getting is "no one knows!" If the person in charge is saying "I dunno", then that rubs me the wrong way. The only time it should be unknown is if it's a millennia old mystery: "Where did the Chaos Emeralds come from?" "No one knows!" Reasonable answer: The Chaos Emeralds are a mystery of the universe. They should always be a mystery. "How is Sonic and everyone jumping between worlds?" "No one knows!" Not reasonable: This is how the games events are being influenced. Imagine the Black Arms invasion of Earth if Shadow was over in Sonic's World at the time: what would happen then? But again, this comes down to my opinion of passion in the games: the story is the baseline, it'll suffer first, yadda yadda yadda.
Well, as I said earlier tho, sometimes franchises use the words "dimension", "world", "timeline", and universe" somewhat interchangeably; that's not just an "Iizuka"/Sonic thing. (Again this is not to say that it isn't poorly explained tho, lmao) Plus, as you mentioned, the book does not outright mention the Riders series, despite mentioning the Babylon Rogues. And if we want to talk about the "Time" Eater's capability to drag in separate dimensions being dragged into Generations in case they are absolutely saying Classic Sonic is entirely separate, what is Blaze doing in Sonic Generations? She has always outright come from an alternate "dimension." Tails does say they are traveling through "time and space" after all. Maybe it's not that far-fetched that the Time Eater would be able to do that.
She's at Sonic's birthday party. You can see her in the opening, so she's come over from her dimension herself. EDIT: Oh, and the Japanese version only has time, no mention of space.
So, paraphrasing a well-known saying, the answer to any question regarding this or any other matter about Sonic is "A Chaos storm did it". You know, sometimes chaos happens and causes random unexpected changes to reality. And a Phantom Ruby eclipse (known as PR eclipse), that happens too.
Forgot about this, tbh! Still, I think the "alternate timeline" explanation is valid enough for Classic. I think we'll have to agree to disagree there!
Honestly, I'd be fine with that interpretation, though I'm of the personal thought that Sonic Generations takes place after Sonic the Hedgehog 2 so before Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles and all that. The problem is SEGA aren't playing ball with that. It's not just the lack of Classic Sonic games, it's the fact Sonic addresses Classic Sonic in the book as from an alternate dimension when explaining the events of Sonic Generations, not a younger version whose timeline breaks off. And apparently, this information is from SEGA themselves, not interpretation. (I also like to think the Mecha Sonic in Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles is based on Modern Sonic from lingering memories of Sonic Generations' events)
You're not wrong in that it's a frustrating lack of cohesion between stories that are unavoidably linked. There's an obvious desire to tell stories with stakes and world-building, but an intentional desire to not be painted into a corner. That's the main crux of the issue: Mainline Sonic is trying to have its cake and eat it too. The "Two worlds" thing is just a symptom of a much larger issue that's easily visible in other areas like Shadow, Team Dark, and Knuckles.
Indeed, but that's why I also maintain they should keep the stories simple enough that you can tell them without voice acting. Not, y'know, have no voice acting, but if you turned off the voices you could still tell what's going on. Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles, Sonic: Man of the Year, Sonic: Night of the Werehog, Sonic Mania Adventures and Team Sonic Racing Overdrive are perfect examples of telling stories without words, and you get personalities from behaviours. Just add words to expand on things, give the characters personality, etc. I don't need to actually see G.U.N. every time I see Shadow. But I think Shadow getting tools from G.U.N. to help him during levels would be a good method of diverging his gameplay from Sonic's, while giving us fans who enjoy it a nice continuity nod to his status as a G.U.N. Agent. Like, Sonic travels through a level, gets to the end. Shadow can take that same path, or he can plug in a tool G.U.N. gave him that lets a remote agent hack into a new path for him to take. Honestly, Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) was doing it the right way: they were quietly in the background coordinating Team Dark's efforts and sending support when they could, but were not actively present beyond a couple of NPCs around Soleanna. But that's unfortunately not going to happen any more. Shadow's apparently abandoned Earth for Sonic's World. So guess his promise to Maria was worth squat. Who knows, perhaps they'll not include Shadow in a Sonic game and imply he's gone back to Ear-sorry, couldn't keep a straight face. Shadow's too much of a money maker.
It has "space-time" (時空) in the title of the game, and the story synopsis on the website. In the opening cut-scene the Time Eater opens up portals to different places in time and space, including Sonic's world, the human world and an obsolete future. It's not unreasonable that another neighbouring universe could get pulled into things too.
Ah yes, various points along Sonic's Timeline, as even the World of Sonic book says. Clearly the Time Eater is able to rip open a separate dimension and drag them into the conflict. It doesn't even rip open a portal to Blaze's Dimension for the 3DS version. An actual alternate dimension it would logically have access to due to being along Sonic's timeline. But I'm still expected to buy that it was able to rip open a portal to a separate dimension, where Robotnik thought he was talking to his past self, who must have looked suspiciously similar to his younger self if so, which has apparently no connection to the modern cast. The lack of continuity is an infuriating mess. But what do I expect from a team who can't even get the story straight between two games they were deliberately connection in the form of Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces. In fact, lets look closer at the Phantom Ruby continuity: Sonic Mania Phantom Ruby drops into Angel Island. It's picked up by some Eggrobos, where it activates and turns them into the Hard Boiled Heavies except not really, while transporting them all to Green Hill Zone except not really. What happens is a long chase for the Phantom Ruby (except maybe not?) that ends with Classic Sonic being dragged into a portal and thrown out into an alternate dimension. Sonic Forces: Rise of Infinite In a comic that is apparently canon, the Phantom Ruby drops out of the sky, where Robotnik finds it and ponders as to what it is. Alternate Dimension instead of past, I'm aware of the horrible choice and factoring it in. Sonic Forces: Stress Test Robotnik uses it against Knuckles on Angel Island, giving Knuckles the illusion of an attack by Chaos and a flash of the Echidna Civilisation. He proclaims that "with such power, I won't even need to bother with the Master Emerald. Oh-ho-ho, look out Sonic! You'll never survive against the power of the Phantom Ruby!" It is still the same hexagonal jewel as before. Sonic Forces: Looming Shadow Robotnik, after marvelling at the Phantom Ruby's abilities... has created the Finalized Phantom Ruby, which is used to defeat Omega in Robotnik's Arsenal Pyramid. We see various Phantom Ruby prototypes around the lab, no mention about why they exist or where the Phantom Ruby is. Sonic Forces Robotnik is established to have created several Phantom Ruby Prototypes, with no implication of them being copies. Infinite destroys all but one Phantom Ruby prototype, which is picked up and used by the Avatar. Infinite has the Finalized Phantom Ruby, "the ultimate weapon", which is now a triangular gemstone. These Phantom Rubies all need to be powered by a generator, the Death Egg and one hidden under Metropolis. Robotnik proceeds to recall the Finalized Phantom Ruby and uses it in his Death Egg Robot for Sonic Forces' final battle, where Tails and Robotnik believe it to have become flawless and no longer needing a power source. It is apparently destroyed in this fight. What's happened to the original Phantom Ruby? That one seemed to work fine for Robotnik: he complains about how the Phantom Ruby Prototypes could only be wielded by whoever activated it first, but the original was activated several times throughout Sonic Mania without issue, no indicated 'wielder' on hand needing to activate it, while the prototype used by the Avatar immediately cuts off when removed from his grasp. That Phantom Ruby also doesn't appear to need an energy source, once again being repeatedly activated with no indication of it being given power. Sonic Mania Plus: Encore Mode Classic Sonic returns to his world, and lo and behold there's the original Phantom Ruby, doing it's thing with no known power source or wielder on hand. Where was it during Sonic Forces? What was it doing while the Finalised Phantom Ruby was being used throughout Sonic Forces? But hey, this is all fine. No care given to continuity: it's just a Sonic game, right? Who cares if it gives so many more questions than answers in two games that they've tied together with the same plot element... except, evidently, not really.
I don't know what you want to hear. You said the Japanese version of Sonic Generations didn't mention space, just time. I pointed out that it does mention space-time. Would you prefer not to have that information? You'll calmly put forward theories like Sonic Triple Trouble being a prequel to Sonic 3 and Sonic Forces takes place on an island, but the Time Eater being able to to cross an additional dimension is a bridge too far? Should I not have put that theory out there? Was it wrong of me to have brought it up? It's really not worth getting too worked up about, or talking to people in ways you probably wouldn't in real life.
No, I'm pointing out that the Time Eater, whose name is clearly indicative of only really having something to do with time, and who has sent people along a timeline wherever Sonic and Robotnik were (hence the Death Egg rising out of the clouds as it did in Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles) rather than indicating anything to do with dimensional travel. Yes, they were moved along space to get to those point, but that hardly suggests dimensional travel. The only 'indication' is that ridiculous two worlds scenario, that Sonic Generations itself doesn't put stock into considering it uses Earth for the background of the Death Egg, filename and all. I would like actual evidence. The manual of Sonic Triple Trouble (well, Sonic and Tails 2) states Knuckles is a stranger to Sonic, actively attempting to stop Sonic from collecting the Chaos Emeralds. This can easily be placed before Sonic and Knuckles encountered one another on Angel Island, which we've got no details on beyond what we see in the game (Sonic the Hedgehog 3's manual only talks about Sonic and Tails finding out that the Death Egg crashed and heading for it and Knuckles and Robotnik's first meeting for character interactions) but after Robotnik's told Knuckles about Sonic. I don't make up theories on the spot, I look at the details and come to a conclusion. If you showed me evidence that Sonic and Knuckles had met long ago by the time Sonic Triple Trouble takes place, then that's fair. Just saying "Well, the creator says..." when there's nothing in-game suggesting anything other than they're travelling along the timeline, and the game itself is saying "hey, these are our younger selves, right Dr. Eggman of the Future?" "Why yes, Dr. Eggman of the Past!", I'm going to operate on the idea that the game is showing past and 'present' versions of the characters. Nah, I don't hide emotions. If I get annoyed at something, I'll express annoyance. I am genuinely annoyed at how horrendous the continuity has gotten under Iizuka, and how no one seems to care despite the absolute mess it's causing, even if it's incredibly easy to fix if someone in control actually did care. Hell, I could fix the Phantom Ruby plot right now: 1) Remove the comics. The details they add do not make sense when set up against the game. 2) None of that Classic is separate nonsense, put it back on the same timeline. 3) Establish that Robotnik is making a new one in Sonic Forces, hence why it behaves so differently to the Sonic Mania incarnation. If Sonic Mania is 'happening' in some form, then we see him taking readings at one point: establish that as when he got the data to recreate it later. 4) Classic Sonic is not taken to the future, only back to Sonic Mania Plus' Encore Mode. What we see in Sonic Forces is a phantom copy, driven by Sonic's sheer willpower and was amongst the above data for the Phantom Ruby due to its ongoing interaction with the Hedgehog, hence its carry over. 5) Once whatever future plans are done for the Phantom Ruby, destroy it in the Classic Era if it wasn't destroyed at the end of Sonic Mania Plus' Encore Mode. The reason for the Phantom Copy conclusion for 4) is that the ending of Sonic Forces and beginning of Sonic Mania Plus' Encore Mode do not match up (he fades out in Sonic Forces akin to the other Phantom Copies, but not quite the same, yet comes through a portal in Encore Mode), but the ending of Sonic Mania and beginning of Encore Mode do match. We do know that Phantom Copies can sustain themselves after 'creation', otherwise Infinite would need to be on the Death Egg with the Zavok copy. And let's be frank, willpower sounds exactly like something the series would justify it with. Boom, easy enough patchwork to get a more consistent continuity than the amazing disappearing, reappearing Phantom Ruby that is being created and finalised despite a perfectly functional Phantom Ruby being on-hand.
What Pengi means is you're putting too much drama into it, whether you hide your emotions or not. That's bad for you both because you're drowning in a pit you dug and filled with water, and because you're being somewhat rude with people talking to you here. There's nothing you can really do about this unless lighning strikes twice and you manage to get hired by Sega and have the chance to talk about it with Iizuka like Mania Team did, and lightning should strike harder this time for you to have any chance of changing anything of what's annoying you. You'd suffer less and could focus all that energy on making brand new fan content, for example; many concepts and projects on my to-do list are about creating quality counterparts of existing stuff, and there are also fangames in that list that follow the classics and add lore to them to create a consistent canon throughout them. Meanwhile they can make Sonic Mario World or Sonic Forceps and I won't care.
