Thank you for the detailed, well-sourced, and super-informative post! I couldn't agree more. It's like I was saying in the Forces topic the other day, these sort of soft continuity reboots tend to happen from time to time in long-running series, and it's easy to identify Sonic Adventure as one of 'em. 06 was stated outright as an attempt at another, but it (fortunately) didn't stick. You could see Unleashed as another, softer reboot. None of these points mean that the previous canon is invalid or _can't_ be referenced, just that it's harder to reconcile with what the series is doing NOW, and the games make no attempt to. Why do the Master Emerald alter, Angel Island, and all the characters look completely different in Sonic Adventure? Why did the anime humans of Adventure become the Final Fantasy humans of 06, then the Pixar humans of Unleashed, then stop showing up entirely? It's kind of like asking why Sonic doesn't just use the boost in Lost World, why Samus Aran loses all of her upgrades between games, or whether the Donkey Kong from off of Donkey Kong Country is Cranky's son or his grandson. It's fun to speculate on and theorize about, but there's no real consistent answer, and I can understand why from the dev's perspective, there doesn't really *need* to be.
If Sonic Mania took place in the past, in the same universe, then Sonic/Tails/Knuckles/Eggman in Sonic Forces would already know what the Phantom Ruby is. EDIT: One of the earliest examples is Knuckles. In Sonic 3 he was the guardian of the Floating Island's 7 Chaos Emeralds. In everything since he's the guardian of the Master Emerald. (Except perhaps Pocket Adventure, where he appears to be the protector of the purple Chaos Emerald - Sonic even returns it to him at the end of the game.)
Why? It's implied that they're caught in an illusion for all but that first cutscene throughout Sonic Mania, and it's not like we ever see it named in-game. It's likely all they know is that a weird red gem is throwing them around space and time, a description that can also be applied to the red Chaos Emerald through Chaos Control. There's also the issue of it not actually being the same Phantom Ruby. Robotnik was developing prototypes, hence the plot point of the Avatar picking one up. Spoiler So even if they were to recognise it, they might also not realise that that Infinite's Phantom Ruby is a copy of it, since it's not the same shape and has some bizarre stripes floating around it. Funnily enough, the prototype more closely resembles the shape of the Sonic Mania Phantom Ruby. Spoiler And the one time they're both in the same cutscene together, for a comparison: Spoiler Pretty much what I've been saying. They could have done an OVA-style thing, but at that point most companies were pushing 3D for everything to show off the console's power. Hence Crash Bandicoot not using the cartoon for the opening.
Woah, you're right! From Windii's translation of Sonic 3's manual... It does, however, contain a reference to a "huge Chaos Emerald." I guess we might attempt to explain this as follows: Knuckles guarded the Chaos Emeralds on Angel Island until, during the events of S3K, he discovered the TRUE source of the island's power was the Master Emerald. Afterward, rather than returning it to Hidden Palace, he decided to guard it out in the open for some reason, eventually taking it to a DIFFERENT ancient emerald altar above ground. After all, he doesn't seem to be in any particular rush to make the trek back to Hidden Palace: This story, especially when combined with the events of the game, also seems to imply that there are more than seven Chaos Emeralds. After all, how could they be on Angel Island and in Sonic's possession before he gets there at the same time? If this is the case, it does help explain discrepancies in how they look, their different colors, and how many there are in the early games. Again, we can fanwank an explanation if we want: Maybe the "Super Emeralds" are the result of combining Angel Island's existing set of Chaos Emeralds with the ones Sonic brings with him from West Side Island, and going forward, what the games call the "Chaos Emeralds" are actually that same Super set. (But to be clear, I'm not advocating that Sega should use this or anything else I say as an explanation, haha. Fan theories are fun, but it's important not to get too attached. We're not word of god here, Iizuka (currently) is. So enjoy them, don't sweat 'em, in other words.)
Well, if we take the Game Gear games into account (and yes, I'm well aware that's a controversial idea), Sonic Blast reveals that when you shatter a Chaos Emerald, you get different coloured shards. Spoiler "What the? What the heck is going on!?" As Sonic thought this to himself, the Chaos Emerald in front of him, which glowed more and more intensely, finally broke up with a shrill sound and turned into 5 gems, scattering somewhere far away. Just some food for thought about the differently shaped, different coloured Chaos Emeralds. EDIT: Said manual also implies Sonic carries a Chaos Emerald on him. Perhaps that's why you only need to collect six in the Game Gear games: he already has the seventh.
Stupid as Knuckles may be, as guardian of the island I feel like he would know about the Master Emerald's existence. I'm thinking something out-of-universe and more mundane: Sonic Team decided, since the Master Emerald wouldn't be introduced until the second half of the game, there was no need to introduce it in the manual for the first half. I could easily see kids going "Wait, the manual mentioned a Master Emerald! Where is it? Is it one of the regular ones? If so, which one?" As for the pic, I always assumed that that was where Sonic & Tails dropped off the Emerald, and Knuckles was seeing them off before returning it to the shrine.
In the Rise of Infinite prequel comic Eggman doesn't recognise the Phantom Ruby at all and is surprised by its power. In Sonic Mania, Eggman has the Phantom Ruby for most of the game and uses its powers several times. I'm curious about that "huge Chaos Emerald" bit. The Sonic & Knuckles Collection manual translated it as: Windii translated it as: Does anyone know if there's ambiguity to that line, or did Sega PC just goof? The Knuckles section of the manual only mentions the 7 Chaos Emeralds, the Chaos Emerald altar and the crystal pillar. The Sonic & Knucles manual mentions the altar and a huge Chaos Emerald - the Master Emerald. The Chaotix manual marries the two ideas and refers to the "Master Emerald pillar", which is what Knuckles is the guardian of in this game. (The Chaos Rings are made of crystalised "pillar energy". The manual also says the Bonus Stages are produced by pillar energy.) It can be inferred that the Chaotix scenario writer was treating the floating structure that houses the Master Emerald in Hidden Palace Zone as the "pillar", even though it's not particularly shaped like one, or shown in-game to have any special function like the Sonic 3 and Chaotix manuals describe. In Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Knuckles' story takes place after Sonic's. When you go through a Super Ring (Mushroom Hill onwards) you can see the Master Emerald has been returned to Hidden Palace. Of course, it's later temporarily taken by Mecha Sonic.
Hm, I wonder how involved the Japanese branch of SEGA were with regards to it. Regardless, I'm going to leave that be. It's just something from the Legend of Zelda theorising side of things, I look at the games and the manuals and leave most whatever the word is for marketing materials alone as it can quickly turn into a case of "the games later say this, so..."
Ian Flynn said that the comics' plots came directly from Sonic Team, he just did the dialogue. Also, a little trivia: he asked what Infinite's name was before he got his powers. They told him his name is Infinite.
Noted. Though this is the same Sonic Team that can't seem to get a plot straight and have gutted an entire era because reasons, so I shouldn't be surprised if they'd mucked something up anyway.
The base Sonic Forces game, taken in isolation, implies that the Phantom Ruby ("Valtron", in the earlier script) and Infinite are creations of Eggman. The prequel comics, the Shadow DLC and Sonic Mania show otherwise. It's apparent that there was a change in direction during development. Even in the "Valtron" script though, both Tails and Eggman recognise Classic Sonic as coming from another world.
Well, I can probably fix the plothole. The Robotnik we see in Sonic Mania isn't actually there: what we see is part of the illusion by the Phantom Ruby, created by Sonic's desire for adventure. Considering we never see him before the Phantom Ruby grabs Sonic, Tails and Knuckles, and I've highlighted that those three seem to be pulled into an illusion due to Knuckles' cutscene, he might genuinely have not encountered the Phantom Ruby before that comic. That'd remove the Robotnik not knowing issue. I'm still going to refuse the idea of Classic Sonic being from another world. Hell, tell me who to contact and I'll happily explain how badly it messes up things and will inevitably harm the brand through confusion.
I said this before, and no version answers my question: how did the Eggmen get out of White Space? The only alternate timeline I see after Generations is classic Sonic never fighting Robotnik again, because there's no known exit from white space unless you're the time eater, and there's nothing there that would allow the Docs to create a gadget that could pull off the trick. Well, in fact, neither Sonic would fight Eggman again, Generations is the final game in both timelines.
I think it was stated somewhere by the devs that the events of Mania aren't an illusion but were really happening. The Phantom Ruby in Sonic Mania is specifically stated to alter and warp reality, while the ruby in Forces was developed by Eggman and creates an elaborate and seemingly deadly (somehow) virtual reality projection. If we are to take the comics as canon, and there's little reason not to at this point, then the Phantom Ruby from Mania ended up in Eggman's hands prior to Classic sonic's arrival and he created his own artificial ruby that worked differently. It's the idea of "I'm going to refuse to accept what's stated" that prompted me to start this topic honestly. At what point do we ignore canon because we want it to be a certain way? At what point are the creators of the franchise wrong or disrespectful to canon rather than trying to preserve or step around it? Headcanon is fine, but at the end of the day it's not really a substitute for what's canonically stated in the games. That said, this thread is kinda veering from the "another dimension/Split Timeline" discussion a bit and into "two worlds" and "other continuity issues", so I'm wondering if it should be renamed...
I had assumed that was the consequences of combining 2 Macguffins into 1. It seems that Team Mania came up with the Phantom Ruby, which could legitimately alter reality, Sonic Team came up with the Valtron, which could create realistic illusions, and Iizuka merged the two together to tie the games together. That's kinda the thing about Mania: while it is TECHNICALLY tethered to Forces, I feel like Team Mania purposefully half-assed the connection so that people who hated Forced could headcanon it out. But it doesn't matter, because I know the real truth: Spoiler The Phantom Ruby is the Reality Stone. Sonic Mania was actually a crossover with the MCU the whole time.
Let us see. Sonic and his friends (+ Classic Sonic, Classic Tails, Shadow and Silver) left the white space after both Super Sonics beat both Eggmans and the Time Eater. They were literally transported; Classic Sonic, Classic Tails, Shadow and Silver weren't even there before. So something triggered that, probably the Time Eater's defeat. Everyone escaped, but both Eggmans were entangled with the Time Eater, so they couldn't make it. Why was everyone transported to the same place? Perhaps because that place was Time Eater's last doing in the real world. So the question is: is the Time Eater dead? If the answer is no, then that is how Eggman escaped. The Time Eater was restoring his energy within the fabric of no-spacetime of the white space and, when he got recovered, Eggman escaped. If the answer is yes, then another question rises. Is the white space a Time Eater's creation? If so, why does this still exist? If the Time Eater is dead, the white space should be erased from existence, and also both Eggmans. So the white space is more likely not to be Time Eater's creation; instead, it is a dimension that the Time Eater could access. Since Eggman is a smart cookie, he learned about the white space when he found the Time Eater for the first time. He wasn't able to master the power of the Time Eater, but if the white space is not Time Eater's creation, he could master that. Then he made a backup plan; if everything goes wrong, a robot will save him. And when did this happen? If there is no time inside the white space, he would have to infinitely wait for his rescue. Eggman miscalculated this. That is why both Eggmans were looking for a way out. Not because they didn't have a backup plan; but because they would need to wait until eternity. But then we discover that indeed there is time in the white space, an almost imperceptible little flow of time. And we know that because both Sonics were the first to return, all of his friends came after them. So eventually time has passed and the saviour robot rescued both Eggmans.
Well, this is curious. Looking at Modern Sonic's shocked reaction to his friends blinking into existence after he got back, it's unlikely he and Classic him got out with "chaos energy" (he'd have brought his friends if that were the case). So, the only option is that time-space was fixing itself after they destroyed the Time Eater (evident by the portal just kind of popping up conveniently for the Classic duo) and it was perhaps taking its time with the Eggmen. That, or Generations really is the last game in the timeline but that begs the question of why Sonic and co. can immediately recognise "Alternative dimension Classic" but be unable to distinguish Modern and "past Classic" when they're physically identical.
The way I've understood it is that White Space is like The Darkness Beyond Time from the Chrono Trigger & Chrono Cross games. It's a dimension consisting of discarded timelines which is why Crisis City is there. Eggman talks about using the time eater to erase his past defeats, so in essence all the zones in the White Space were only there at the time because they got erased by the time eater and drained of their life. The two Sonics restored these zones (barring Crisis City) and it led to their restoration upon the defeat of the time eater along with Sonic's friends. That's why the White Space is seemingly a void during the Eggmen cutscenes. Obviously, both returned to their respective time periods somehow, and Past Eggman (Robotnik) learned enough about his future defeats that it seems unlikely that he would repeat them on purpose. That's part of the reason I think a timeline split would make sense. I've heard it talked about elsewhere that both Classic and Modern Sonic being pulled into the White Zone and arriving at the same time could itself be a paradox that was resolved by each splitting off into their own dimensions. A past version of yourself and the present version of yourself cannot exist in the same place at the same time without one of you not being there. If the above idea that it's a temporal wastebasket is correct, how can both a past version of Sonic be erased alongside his future counterpart? The moment Classic Sonic is erased from time, Sonic from that point onward should not exist. To solve that paradox, reality splintered into two possible outcomes, the timeline we originally know that belongs to Modern Sonic, and a new timeline/dimension where the events of Classic Sonic & Eggman being pulled from time happened and the resulting consequences of that set that timeline off in a new direction. So it's less that time split off on it's own due to foreknowledge of events as it is another dimension was created to prevent a massive temporal paradox, but it's splitting hairs at that point. Honestly, the idea of a split timeline plays a lot with the classical paradox of Schrodinger's Cat and the "Many Worlds Interpretation" that attempts to resolve that paradox. Might be worth reading about while talking about the possibility.
My reason for ignoring what's been stated is that it's inherently wrong. Let's look at both Classic Sonic 'canons': Sonic Generations. It portrays him as a younger Sonic, alongside the classic Robotnik design who is outright called "Dr. Eggman of the Past." It makes sense, keeps a single continuity going along, doesn't interfere with canon in the slightest. Sonic Forces. It portrays him as an alternate dimension Sonic, along with Welcome to the World indicating it's retroactively been changed Generations as well. Welcome to the World of Sonic also implies the Classic adventures did not happen by leaving them out, meaning it rips out the classic era, meaning all of the throwbacks to that era make no sense, the name Sonic Generations makes no sense as now it's set between two Dimensions rather than Generations, and when Modern Sonic and Tails talk about Green Hill and Chemical Plant: they've never been there before as far as the new continuity is concerned, so what are they talking about? There's also the Death Egg in Sonic Forces: why did Sonic say it never stays destroyed? Most Death Eggs were in the Classic Era. He has one, the Sonic Battle Death Egg, and saw the Classic Death Egg in Sonic Generations. Sonic the Hedgehog 4 ties itself to the plot of Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles directly: where does that sit in this new split dimensions? If the adventures still happened, why have they been removed in the Welcome to the World of Sonic book? What's the point of the split if the same things happened anyway? Basically, the change is nothing but a mess and should not have been implemented. See, I don't think that's the case as, well, Knuckles throws a wrench into it. At the very least, they've been dragged into a new world outside of their normal one. As I noted in a different thread: Sonic and Tails see the EggRobos... Spoiler ...before being 'warped' away. Spoiler And the Hard Boiled Heavies 'overwrite' the EggRobos. Spoiler But Knuckles was relaxing off to the side. Spoiler And sees the EggRobos fly past after the point Sonic and Tails saw the Hard-Boiled Heavies. Spoiler And notably, the Phantom Ruby 'bugs out' as it comes onto screen. Spoiler Considering Knuckles turns up in the Sonic story later, we know this is the same event between the two stories. So why are the EggRobos still there?
