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What approach should 3D Sonic take next?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by The Joebro64, Mar 23, 2020.

  1. Pengi

    Pengi

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    I'm not so sure about that. Naka said the Chao were an evolution of the "A-Life" (Nightopians) in NiGHTS, which released months before Tamagotchi. I think they were genuinely invested in expanding on that idea - although it certainly didn't hurt that it was an obvious way to use the Dreamcast's VM.
     
  2. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    I don't understand, I thought the Chao Garden was the game.

    There's some shitty minigame where you play as a hedgehog and some other characters to collect rings and animals for the Chao, is that what you're talking about?
     
  3. Wildcat

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    If they remake Adventure nothing major should be removed. Just updated. Give Big the Cat actual stages. His fishing rod could be used as a weapon for grabbing enemies and objects. Fishing for Froggy only needs to happen a couple times. Obviously once at the end.

    I never really got into the Chao Gardens either but you could turn them into a reward for beating the entire game. Make them into something like villages that you can build for them. Like Animal Crossing-Light. It’d make them more appealing and add replay value. Make them easier to evolve. Maybe it was just me but they seem to require a lot for a specific kind.
     
  4. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    That's still sort of equivalent of removing them. I think the fishing minigame should be kept in every level, but give it the same priority as say, Gamma's shooting targets at the end of each level, have some sort of bulk leading up to it so it's not ALL there is to his campaign.

    Like see Hot Shelter's structure, but have Big be able to interact more with the environment. Add more objects to lug and throw around at enemies and give him some level of power like his Heroes body slam and a more palpable hit radius with his rod attack. Keep a very basic design about his levels to maintain his role as the laid back campaign, but make it fun to play around in.

    The fishing itself isn't really that huge a tedium, I genuinely think the only major setback was the poor physics and not giving some clear instruction you had to press down to attract Froggy, otherwise it's just kind of a quick minigame, if too bland to really make a whole level about.
     
  5. Pengi

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    I don't think that would improve the game. The idea was that you would use the animals you collect along the way, and find new gardens as you progress through the game. If a less experienced player was struggling with the harder levels, they could still replay earlier levels and collect animals for their Chao - so they would still get a sense of accomplishment, and in replaying levels their skills would improve to the point where they're ready to tackle the harder stages.
     
  6. Wildcat

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    @ E-122-Psi ...But continuously loosing Froggy after fishing him out doesn’t really make sense. It’s too many times for every stage.

    It should be something like Chaos has captured him and that’s who Big is after. Every stage ends with just missing Chaos who has Froggy trapped inside of him until he fights him at the end of his story.

    The fishing itself could still be a mini game separate from his story mode. Give Big an actual house with a pond where he fishes for different kinds

    @ Pengi ...ya that’s true. Well they could still be available whenever you want but they should really be easier to get into. Not the Gardens I mean the whole Chao thing.

    The build-a-garden would make it a lot more fun. They were basically just empty rooms in both Adventures.
     
  7. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

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    Just something I thought was cool.
     
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  8. E-122-Psi

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    Story/gameplay segregation. Why is there always exactly three emerald shards in every level Knuckles enters? Why does Tails losing a playful race to Sonic get considered a loss?

    Again the fishing is just kind of a thing Big does as his quirky gameplay gimmick, I think the solution is to just make this element more fleeting and give more of a proper level around it. The fishing is truthfully meant to be the pinnacle part of Big's role as the 'chill out' campaign, the part that relaxes you, the main problem however is that the execution is a bit too tedious and boring rather than relaxing and the lack of other material to his gameplay makes it undercooked.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  9. qwertysonic

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    That actually looks really good.
     
  10. SuperSnoopy

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    Wow, a 3D sonic fangame that isn't an open world Green Hill ? Interesting.
    edit: hey, it looks pretty cool actually
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  11. BadBehavior

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    I dunno, it performs kinda poorly, it seems to stutter and jitter quite a bit, which might be the camera.

    That aside, is it me or do all 3d fangames follow this formula? It's getting difficult to tell every new engine and new level apart.
     
  12. Ayu Tsukimiya

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    In all seriousness, the Chao Gardens always felt way more polished than any of the action stages or other mini games. Maybe because it's so simple?

    And it's still all optional unless you're a completionist or you *really* wanna play that bad Green Hill Zone remake. Getting rid of it or some of the characters would only piss off fans.
    I'm sure you could go as far as to make Amy a straight up Sonic clone and there wouldn't be a ton of complaints because people want to play as their favorite characters more than anything.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  13. Overlord

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    I mean.... they're optional in SA1, sure, but they're not in SA2 if you want to play every Sonic level.
     
  14. Beltway

    Beltway

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    There is another playthough where the camera/gameplay does looks more stable, but I can't say I like how the camera is handled overall; it doesn't really seem to be locked to the character movement/direction for normal gameplay and isn't properly locked for the boss fights.



    My primary complaint though is how I also have to agree with you about 3D fangame projects, at least in the sense of mashing together elements of the Adventure/traditiona 3D platformer gameplay and the Boost gameplay that are pretty distinct in gameplay focus. Sonic's controls/running speed and the scope of the level design doesn't match the structure of the level paths and some of the game mechanics included. The biggest example IMO is how most of the classic enemies and stage hazards (like the spiked balls on chains) are placed off-center from the main routes and can just be rushed past.

    The sound mixing is also very rough. Rings can barely be heard over the music, while checkpoints, springs, and "boop" sound effects for destroying enemies are very loud.

    With all that said, I do like the level design in terms of how the level setting changes throughout, as well as the implementation of multiple routes in the stages. I do think it's definitely near the top of the scale of level design for 3D Sonic fangames.
     
  15. BadBehavior

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    Yeah that was something else I noticed. It feels like a boost game that lacks the boost, and it feels a bit barren as a result.

    I just think they haven't really evolved much beyond being like Green Hill Paradise Act 2. It's becoming hard to tell them apart from each other, they're lacking some hook that makes them stand out. Sonic Utopia has the classic aesthetic, Sonic World has the many playable characters etc. I imagine 2D fangames have it just as bad.
     
  16. Frostav

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    A lot of these projects are built off the same few base engines, so that's why. I was able to peg that game as a Bumper Engine one the very moment I saw that running animation. I don't particularly mind it--of the current 3D Sonic fan frameworks, I think the Bumper Engine is probably the most versatile and polished. Utopia's is just as good, but...other people can't use it.
     
  17. Pengi

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    This is cool and impressive as something made by a hobbyist. But I think it highlights a lot of what wouldn't work for a Sonic game. It has the jittery camera/motion sickness issue discussed earlier, and the environment is too big and too open. A lot of running with no platforming, no obstacles to overcome, no tests of reflexes. Everything is so spread out that the enemies pose no threat, you can simply run past them. Sonic Adventure 1 had the non-threatening enemy problem to an extent. I imagine that's why the enemies have been bigger in every 3D Sonic game since, and less "squishy" when you homing attack them - more weight and impact. But in general the level design needs to be narrower and denser. Sega has certainly overcompensated with their Crash Bandicoot-esque corridor/race track approach in recent titles, and they should open things up more, but as this demo shows, if it's opened up too much then it ceases to function as a game.

    Seaside Hill Act 2 in Sonic Generations does a lot with the three dimensional level design, and multiple branching and height tiered paths. It's one worth keeping in mind as a starting point, for both hobbyists and Sega themselves.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2020
  18. BadBehavior

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    And then the boost games happened. Has anyone ever died to a normal in-level enemy in a boost game? They exist exclusively as boost energy fodder (or score fodder in games where Wisps fill boost). I get people complained about them having health bars in Heroes/06, but to make them a complete non-presence is just using a jackhammer to fix what could be done with a chisel.

    It's funny how you mention Crash Bandicoot because they had the same problem in level design. As they entered the PS2 generation and the levels became wider, enemies became less of an issue because you could just navigate around them. I don't think such tight, narrow levels would be as bad of a thing if Forces wasn't just Hold Square to Win.
     
  19. Antheraea

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    Actually funny thing, it's been a problem for Crash since the very first game, which they very sloppily got around by having enemies map their x-axis to the player's so you couldn't just run around them - so they would like...very obviously...follow Crash when he'd approach them, sliding left or right in the most obvious non-animated fashion. it's still one of the OG crash's biggest design weaknesses to me.
     
  20. Turbohog

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    I forgot about Green Hill. Unlocking it after everything else is a cool reward, but I honestly think it's way too extreme to require obtaining all emblems. I think a better solution would be to lock it behind a lower number of emblems - so you don't have to play the missions you hate / the Chao garden so much - Mario 64 style.