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What really was the Sound Test #10 in STH2 going to be used for?

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Nick Gemini, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. Glaber

    Glaber

    Has Beaten Sonic Genesis for GBA Oldbie
    @lordofsquad, your link doesn't work.

    I think we may have forgotten the planned levels that never even got prototype graphics. To better present my argument/theories, I present these map slides I snagged from a sonic 2 development topic. I'll try to provide evidence where possible.
    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG] (alt past aparently)

    ok, so what I'm thinking here is that most of the tracks were assigned to their proper stages in final. Hidden palace would have gotten track 10 based on how late the stage lost its graphics and badniks. Wood zone would not have gotten Emerald Hill's 2p mode track, instead that would have gone over to either Ocean wind zone, blue lake zone, or Tropical Plant zone.

    Mysitc Cave 2P would have likely gone over to Rock zone/Rock world Zone.

    Aquatic Ruin's track might have originally been planned for Sand Shower (thought to have been Dust hill for years by fans), but even in the beta version of the track, it sounds too aquatic witch tells me it was being repurposed for Aquatic Ruin/Olympus at the time of at least the Saimon wai beta. The track it might have had otherwise, I don't know.

    Dust hill was apparently always suppose to be Mystic cave going off of what we have in the betas, and the lack of Mystic cave being on any of these maps. This would mean that the track assigned to it as mystic cave was the one meant for it as Dust Hill.

    Casino Night's tracks are a little more confusing as both the Single player and multiplayer tracks fit the theme. After reading in another topic that Wood zone was suppose to be Casino Night's past instead of Metropolis', I think it's possible that Wood Zone was meant to get the 2P version of the Casino Night track, likly at the tempo from the saimon wai beta.

    Oil Ocean's proper track would have been the one it got in final Sonic 2.

    Weather or not my music assignments are correct or not, I have no idea.


    Referance: Topic where the images were grabbed from: http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=36719
     
  2. LordOfSquad

    LordOfSquad

    bobs over baghdad Member
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    making cool music no one gives a shit about
    whoops. fixed it, thanks~
     
  3. Fadaway

    Fadaway

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    This is a good summation of my thoughts on this.
     
  4. XCubed

    XCubed

    Will Someday Own a Rent-A-Center Oldbie
    Going back and listening to Masa's Demos, I don't appreciate how the sound team changed the percussion/drum beats for #10. I also want a proper 16-bit full version of How Theme of Sonic the Hedgehog (Demo). They screwed up Casino Night in the Beta, but fixed it by making it sound closer to the original demo (although it would have made a fine Act 2.....which Yuzoboy reinvigorated).
     
  5. McAleeCh

    McAleeCh

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    Didn't someone find that data for the extra section of the song is actually present in Sonic 1's ending sequence jingle, but is just skipped over in the finished version of the track? Can't remember if it was ever fully restored - it may have been missing data for some of the channels, if I recall correctly...?

    EDIT: Yes, here we go - the 'someone' was evilhamwizard, and this topic details the find. Interestingly, as pointed out in the topic, the backing channels for the used section seem to fit the unused section perfectly, so it's possible there was simply a call to repeat those bars of backing in the original, longer version, which was then removed when the track was truncated. Based on this, it seems it would indeed theoretically be possible to recreate a fully-polished version of the longer track.
     
  6. A theory, The Game Results Theme i believe may have been originally for the Wood Zone, It doesn't sound repetitive & fits as a stage theme, & has a very slight Jungle feel to it.
     
  7. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    A lot of people seem to think the 2 Player tracks were intended for other levels and I don't find it convincing at all. As I've said, the fact the music tracks for the levels are different in the beta doesn't mean anything, because even the levels have the wrong names.

    I mean, let's take Emerald Hill 2 Player as an example. It has the glimmering and exuberant build up sound at the beginning which is quite typical of first stage Sonic levels (similar sounds start Green Hill and Palmtree Panic, it's very much in vein with Sonic first level themes). The actual track with its up tempo and upbeat sound is perfect for a first level, it wouldn't fit a level someway into the game like Wood Hill as people are claiming.

    I think it's pretty clear it was always intended to be used for Emerald Hill's 2 player level.

    Just because you think it would sound better for Wood Zone doesn't mean it was ever going to be used for that level.

    And as for Track 10...

    Track 10 is the only unused song in the game and Hidden Palace was cut late into development. We don't have the music tracks for Dust Hill, Cyber City et cetera because they never made it far enough to go through multiple music revisions, reach final build and actually make it into the full game. The only level we know of which was worked on near completion was Hidden Palace, and that just so happens to use Track 10 when you access it in game genie...

    I think it's pretty conclusive to me. The only thing which seems to be tripping people up is track 10 being used for cutscene music, but there's no evidence for that whatsoever. I mean, do we have any evidence there were going to be cutscenes to that scale in Sonic 2? I guess you could say the Masa demo could support the idea, but it loops in game and doesn't fade out ala Angel Island in Sonic Mania standard, so...

    Actually, I'll go ahead and say it's 99% likely track 10 was going to be used in Hidden Palace.
     
  8. Sir_mihael

    Sir_mihael

    DON'T TRUST THIS MAN Member
    Yeah, I gotta say - what matters to me is that despite the original Masa demo having an ending, the fact the final version of the song in Sonic 2 is a looping track kinda overrules anything prior. If it was really intended to be a non-looping cutscene track, it would have probably stayed like that in the final game.

    If it was planned as a possible cutscene track that later on got reworked to become a stage theme, then surely only one stage would have fit that boot. That's my take on it all anyway.

    Now here's a game theory, something I've been thinking-
    Of course, the Taxman port of Sonic 2 didn't use the hidden track. Despite what's been said already, do you think SEGA themselves might have said "No, don't use that track" for any reason?
    Most fans of Sonic 2 growing up have always dreamed of playing Hidden Palace with that elusive track. For it to suddenly just use another existing stage theme because it works a bit better for the stage seems a bit... against the whole idea of bringing back Hidden Palace?

    Of course, everyone has their own take on how they always wanted that stage to look and sound so I'm interested to know - were people fine with it being Mystic Cave 2P in the end, or should it have been Track #10 still?
     
  9. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    I don't think SEGA told Taxman what song to use, I doubt anyone who worked on Sonic 2 even remembers what was going to be used.

    I think track 10 should have been used.
     
  10. Antheraea

    Antheraea

    Bug Hunter Member
    Track 10 is too slow to be used in an actual level in practice IMO.

    Hidden Palace was not necessarily cut late. It was just cut later. The differences between the Nick Arcade proto and the Simon Wai proto are minimal (as indicated by TCRF), which seems to indicate that they made no progress on it despite...all the other massive changes between said protos. That can hint that the zone was already abandoned (at least, as a stage) but they hadn't actually removed it from the ROM yet.
     
  11. Fadaway

    Fadaway

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    At one point, I would have disagreed and said they'd made the best decision with the music, but in hindsight I think it would have been grand to hear a Masa demo-esque reprise of 10 for HPZ.
     
  12. Powpuck

    Powpuck

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    Multiplayer Emerald Hill sounds like reggae to me, so I can't imagine it in any other place apart from a beach. I'd sooner assume that it was the definitive EH before it was usurped.

    Hilltop sounds like jug band, skiffle or possibly bluegrass to me, none of which evokes a Mojave setting but more Appalachia or Ozarks, which befits the Zone just fine.
     
  13. Fadaway

    Fadaway

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    You're on point ROFL.

    I never got the Sky Chase-must-be-winter-zone thing personally. It sounds like flying music to me, whatever flying music is. All of this is speculation. I do enjoy reading these posts, though. I like talking about the game's music.
     
  14. Something i noticed in the Main & Demo Version for Mystic Cave Zone (Not the 2P Version) It has an evil circus/clown vibe to it. Could there have been a planned circus level at one point in development?
     
  15. Plorpus

    Plorpus

    Hog Blue So What Member
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    No
     
  16. Xilla

    Xilla

    I fail to understand....I begin to see! Member
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    A recent Yuzo Koshiro release included several tracks composed for SoR1 that ultimately went unused, which was surprising as most fans assumed everything unused for that game (Up and Up, Super Threc, Name Entry) had already been heard.

    Presumably more of Masa Demos might exist in a safe somewhere at SEGA? Guessing they only released the demos for the tracks that made it into the final games.
     
  17. Titan

    Titan

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    While I agree Emerald Hill 2P doesn't really fit Wood Zone, is there not a possibility it could have been intended for 'Ocean Wind' or 'Tropical Summer'? It seems like it'd work in a beach/ocean kinda level.
     
  18. XCubed

    XCubed

    Will Someday Own a Rent-A-Center Oldbie
    Thank you so much for sharing this. I somehow missed this discussion awhile back. What an interesting discovery! It's like they rendered the hidden/silent tracks of the song into the final version without first erasing it.
     
  19. Pengi

    Pengi

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    The demo version makes it clear that it wasn't originally intended to be a looping track. It's hard to make a guess without knowing the full development timeline. A tune for Sonic receiving his Super powers is one possibility. If it was composed when the time travel storyline was still in play, then a cut-scene theme for "Warp Point" or "Olympus" is another possibility.

    By the time it made it into the game, it was re-purposed into a looping track for Hidden Palace Zone.

    How much do we even know about Hidden Palace Zone anyway? The left-over data and mock-up screenshots indicate that it was just an ordinary level, with enemies and obstacles and items and water, but years after the fact Naka said that it was where Sonic would receive his Super powers, and that they eventually used the idea in S&K. So did it start off as a "Sonic receives his Super form" level and get repurposed into an ordinary level? Or vice-versa? Or was it intended to be like Sonic 3 & Knuckles, where it serves both functions? Yasuhara's time-travel based maps didn't have Hidden Palace anywhere, but his other documents do mention Sonic travelling back in time "by activating Hidden Shrine", which indicates that Hidden Shrine and Warp Point were one and the same.

    So as a guess, I think it was originally...

    Warp Point = Hidden Shrine: Where Sonic travels through time (plot based)

    Olympus: Where Sonic receives his god-like Super powers (Mt. Olympus was home of the Gods, not marked on the map as a "Zone", or a place that Sonic travels to linearly)

    Then after the time travel story was dropped, the Hidden Palace became the area Sonic received his Super powers.

    Then they just decided it would be better to turn Hidden Palace into an ordinary Zone?

    It's difficult to say for sure. But I think it's safe to say there were multiple changes along the way, so it's probably not as simple as Plan A/Plan B.
     
  20. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    This is all very speculative. Do we even know when time travel was dropped? How much of the game was even made before they decided to drop it and make it a more conventional Sonic experience?