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Shenmue 3

Discussion in 'General Sega Discussion' started by Saidian, Jun 16, 2015.

  1. Sappharad

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    I completely agree with this. I started to realize it yesterday when I wrote a long post over at Shenmue Dojo explaining why they would bother to enhance some of the textures if everything else was kept original. It's $30 for 2 games, which got the same level of effort as the other Dreamcast games that they ported back in 2012 for around the same price if you include the cost of the DLC. (I'm referring to how SA1 and SA2 were $10, but then they sold the Mission Mode and Battle DLCs for $3 each respectively) If you think about it that way, the decisions they made on the project make sense. Every decision they made on the project outside of the goal of porting them was the easiest / least expensive option.

    Here are some points that promote this argument:
    - Let's start with the textures. Yeah, it's been found that some Shenmue 1 textures are higher resolution. But this is exactly because it was cheaper/easier option. The original textures were compressed with the PowerVR hardware specific native format, they would have needed to decompress the existing textures and repack them all anyway to have something they could use with current gen platforms. If the originals were available with the source, it would actually be less work to just use those rather than unpack the already compressed Dreamcast ones.
    - I've already mentioned this, but the same camera projection matrix / rendering logic is used for cutscenes & in-game. Their changes to make gameplay 16x9 would have done the same to cutscenes, but there are the few cases of previously mentioned stuff out of frame. Rather than go through every scene and fix errors, or go and review individual scenes to see if they are good, the easiest/cheapest option here is to just force everything to 4x3 so they don't need to fix it. Zoom would have been a good compromise, but it's not always going to be the best option because you lose info on top and bottom. It's another case that requires scene-by-scene adjustments. Too expensive for low budget ports.
    - We're getting new HUD elements, which is nice. But they had to redraw some of them anyway since the Timex branded watch is gone. Since many of the HUD elements come from the same texture sheet, it makes sense to re-draw them all instead of mashing together a sheet of old and new ones.
    - The games have the original compressed voices. Sega has the original voice recordings from the games, they used higher quality ones in Shenmue the Movie and later in All Stars Racing. But they would have had to repack and potentially re-cut all clips into new AFS packs, which have tens of thousands of files. Not worth their time based on budget.
    - The original engine uses frame-by-frame animations like 2D games did. (This is why the original games slow down when lots of characters are on-screen instead of skipping frames) We're stuck with 30fps because they would have had to interpolate every single animation in the game, and potentially recode some of the movement logic to halve all of the values to account for doubled framerate.
    - I came up with this theory yesterday and we won't know if it has any basis in reality until the game comes out. The music playback used AM2's custom DTPK sound driver which was written for the ARM-based AICA hardware on Dreamcast. This was also ported to x86 for XBOX minus some DSP capabilities. But both the original XBOX and the Dreamcast supported 64-channel audio mixing in hardware. If they want to use the same codebase on all platforms, they'd need a pretty good multi-platform audio playback solution and I don't know of anything they could really use. If the audio driver couldn't be ported, I'm predicting they did the cheapest option possible here, which is to swap out all of the music for recorded versions which could explain part of the 30GB space requirement on PC. Shenmue 2 on its own had over 700 music tracks on the disc and many were repeated across discs. The XBOX version retained separate folders for data from the original Dreamcast discs (thus the same duplicates situation) and I expect the same here since the original Dreamcast versions used the exact same 1ST_READ.BIN binary for every disc and had logic that was based on what Disc they were on. Combining them would be a waste of money.
    - Save Anywhere was available as a cheat device code for Shenmue 1 on Dreamcast. That new feature was pretty easy for them to add, especially if they were re-doing the menu system anyway.
    - The bloom lighting added to the first game could have been copy/pasted from their work porting 2x. The filters in 2x were all post processing effects I believe which wouldn't impact the actual rendering logic.


    Since they're only $30 and probably required some additional work over other ports, the lack of effort seems to match up fine with the price point. I wish they would have cared more about the series to give them extra work, but it definitely would have cost more if they did. I think the price is at least fair.

    I did call them out on Twitter for the cutscene zoom thing, but didn't get a reply. If zoom is not an option to avoid letterboxing, then why was the PC Game Show trailer zoomed? Someone posted a comparison of the 16x9 Nozomi motorcycle scene last month which confirmed they just made it widescreen for the trailer by zooming. (cropping top and bottom) It's kind of false advertising if they're allowed to fuck with the aspect ratio for a trailer when they also explicitly say the game doesn't have that feature.
     
  2. PkR

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    According to this post, SEGA Europe claims the lighting in Shenmue 1 and 2 "HD" is identical to the Dreamcast and Xbox versions respectively, and that the differences found so far are caused by the new postprocessing effects that can be turned off. That's reassuring news, but it's coming from SEGA PR people who have said bullshit like this before. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

    Also, regarding 30 FPS...
    Admittedly I've never hacked Shenmue but if the animations are anything like what's described in the Dreamcast SDK (which is used by SA1/SA2 for example), the motions don't need to be tied to the framerate. Although Ninja motions use something like "keyframes", everything between those is already interpolated, and making framerate-independent animations isn't too difficult. But if they really did each individual frame of the animation manually (why?..) then yeah, that would present a problem.

    As for the 4:3 bars in cutscenes and whatever, I think this is the last thing to worry about in these ports. I bet the very first mod for these games will be removing the borders as soon as the ports come out on PC (that is, if Denuvo doesn't get in the way).
     
  3. Fred

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    This is a good point and one which I hadn't considered. If we're the tiniest bit lucky, we might just get some good recordings straight from original Dreamcast hardware.

    To clarify on this, since I've seen much misinformation about it, you could always save anywhere in Shenmue I, except it works a bit like the owl saves in Majora's Mask where it forces you to exit the game, and then deletes the save after loading it once. So all the logic is already there, they just had to lift those restrictions in order to match Shenmue II's free saving.

    I hope Shenmue I has cutscene skips.
     
  4. Sappharad

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    I haven't personally messed with animation stuff either so I guess I should've added the disclaimer on that. The actual animation format is not really documented anywhere, with the exception of some work people did to swap gameplay animation pointers to play back different ones. For this problem I'm specifically focusing on the cutscenes. They used motion capture extensively in the originals, as opposed to animation by hand which could look stiff like last year's Shenmue 3 teaser where they weren't using motion capture for much of it. I think it's a reasonable assumption that the motion capture data they have works like a recording and stores the skeleton bone positions for each frame. (The game uses skeletal animations like modern games still do, as an example someone did this creepy video where they swapped Ryo's model for the cat) The other evidence of this is the fact that there are a handful of 60fps hacks for Dreamcast games now (for emulators) and previous attempts at doing one for Shenmue just resulted in animations all playing twice as fast, essentially the entire game running too fast. Now there could be some kind of separate flag for animation speed that they're missing, but I doubt it just based on the assumption that it sounds like motion capture probably wasn't converted into keyframes.

    Sadly, while I agree with you on the mod situation, I won't get to reap the benefits of that initially hence my willingness to pester their PR team in hopes they have enough people bothering them to change their mind. I pre-ordered the physical PS4 edition, and while I had initially planned to double-dip and get PC as well, I'm going to avoid that for awhile specifically because of Denuvo. It was noticeable with Sonic Mania, impacting the initial launch time of the game (30 seconds to launch is unacceptable, especially given a weaker console can load the game faster) and then the CPU use was unusually high for a 2D game, especially when comparing it to the Sonic CD 2011 port. Yeah, it's expected for it to be higher being a much more complex game, but not by a factor of 5 to 10 times. If they remove Denuvo at some point shortly after launch I'll get it, but otherwise I'll wait until it's been out for a while and goes on sale because ultimately I want to help send the message that they're losing sales by integrating that trash which negatively affects performance. For the general non-technically-minded user, I don't actually think the Denuvo thing is something they're going to care about and if I didn't have another platform to run it on I would have bought the PC version instead. That comment's not helpful for me being against it, but having experienced it first hand I know it both sucks horribly but also doesn't really prevent me from playing the game. (After playing Mania multiple times on Switch and PS4, I played the PC version on macOS through WINE multiple times and Denuvo didn't break that. I actually haven't even run it on pure Windows.)
     
  5. Aesculapius Piranha

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    Tends to happen when you saddle your games with memory eating malware just to spite people who weren't going to buy it anyway and then half-ass long anticipated ports that have already been done by emulators. I really wanted to want this, but Denuvo remains a deal breaker for my ideal platform and the fact it is unoptomized for modern systems after so many years just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It is getting increasingly hard for me to want to support SEGA.
    Shenmue 3 is another matter in and of itself. I'm trying to lower my expectations at this point so I don't absolutely hate playing it, but it is very clear to me that this project was not continued with the idea of "doing it right" in mind. Its really depressing. But you would be mistaken to think my criticism comes from anything other than a place of wanting this all to be awesome.

    Believe me I want this to be awesome. I loved these games. I hate that they are aren't getting the attention they deserve. I also hate that SEGA has become so buddy buddy with a crapware company like Denuvo. It basically means I won't be buying anything SEGA PC in the near future, and that makes me sad especially since they are starting to port series that I love. Its like a monkey paw wish.
     
  6. biggestsonicfan

    biggestsonicfan

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    I just realized I never did my survey and WHAT IS THIS $80 IN GAME PHONE CARD WITH KICKSTARTER LOCKED CONTENT WHAT THE FUCK WHY IS THIS THE FIRST I HAVE HEARD OF THIS?


    Did I miss a memo and have this already in my Signed edition? I am not scanning through a million updates to figure this one out.
     
  7. 360

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  8. Sappharad

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    It was one of the kickstarter exclusive bonuses, it has been there since the campaign was happening in 2015. Ryo will be able to call some people from the previous two games, it's essentially just bonus flashback scenes for fans.

    It remains kickstarter exclusive because of the survey that went out after the kickstarter asking whether they should make kickstarter exclusive items available for slacker backers. There were unfortunately a bunch of people who voted no, and their only excuse was that they were collectors and wanted the items to remain collectible. Which doesn't really make much sense, because basically the only things that were restricted from the slacker backer campaign were the telecom reward that you mentioned (which is digital so it can only be redeemed once by the purchaser anyway, presumably, unless they just make it some kind of secret code which would mean people could just share it anyway) and the tiers above $600 which put backer content into the game. So no, if you backed via PayPal, you don't get that, but don't worry too much because it's just an unlockable thing that you can watch on YouTube if you really want to see.

    I don't think that initial survey went the way the people who voted no thought it would, because all of the physical rewards are available via the slacker backer campaign. The only things restricted outside of the "World Telecom" phone thing were in-game backer content like getting your photo placed on a board near the docks, etc.
     
  9. 360

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    sonicblur - what do you think of the latest gameplay screenshot? I'm interested as you're the best poster in this thread by far, always chiming in with lengthy, insightful and thoughtful posts on Shenmue 3 so I'd love to read your opinion. I think it looks fucking fantastic and it's a similar generally positive reaction on ResetERA too. Curious as to what you think, as well anyone else who'd like to comment.
     
  10. Sappharad

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    I think I mentioned that I was satisfied with the graphical quality last year, while animations were still robotic. The new screenshot looks good, but I think it would be better to see in motion which we'll probably get next month for Gamescom. There's something weird about the full-sized version of the screenshot though - the HUD is higher quality than the gameplay, as if it's running at 720p and being upscaled to 1080p if that makes sense. It could be actual PS4 footage and dynamic resolution if that's the case and they just haven't optimized it yet. Shrunken down it looks fine. The art style does seem more consistent now, to me it seems like they did something to the environment where it's detailed as if it's realistic, but at the same time it has a slightly drawn-like quality if that makes sense. Could just be the resolution thing though. The previous games were really good when it came to lighting in dark areas, and this seems to have the same quality which I like.

    The little yin-yang icon with arrows next to Ryo resembles the icon from the leaked press trailer from last August. I wonder if this is related to the simplified battle system they're talking about - perhaps pressing left backs you off (dodges) and pressing right is what executed the attack. I haven't checked out the ResetEra thread yet, but I'll get to that later.
     
  11. biggestsonicfan

    biggestsonicfan

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    Okay, wew, I used Kickstarter on day 1. I'm not sure how I missed the phone card, or perhaps I just forgot and putting an $80 price tag on DLC for what is basically the only bridge (announced) between the originals and the new game. I'm glad I'm getting those.
     
  12. CollectiveWater

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    I haven't played "Shenmue" in a very very long time, but is that the warehouse where you first encounter Master Chen? Reminds me of it, just brightly lit. Probably isn't, but certainly that screenshot is confirmation that warehouses and forklifts (and probably sailors) are all gonna be in 3. Hope Tom makes a glorious comeback.
     
  13. DigitalDuck

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    Given that the warehouse you first encounter Master Chen is in Yokosuka, Japan, and Shenmue III is set in Guilin, China... very unlikely. :v:
     
  14. 360

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    The latest screenshot got me so hyped I just pledged $30 for a Digital Steam copy of the game via the Slacker Backer site. If you'd like to do the same you have up until midnight JST August 13 at which point crowd funding officially ends. Also thanks sonicblur for responding with your thoughts. Glad to read you have a positive opinion and yeah we definitely need to see the game in-motion.
     
  15. CollectiveWater

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    Ha, gotcha. I haven't been following "Shenmue 3" at all so didn't know it was confirmed to be entirely set somewhere else. Has there been any confirmation from the team or Suzuki himself about how many chapters of the overall story 3 is supposed to encompass? (I vaguely remember him saying the script had many chapters and that it would take many sequels to cover it all back in the day when the first game came out. How many more games does he/the team think they'll need to make to actually tell the entire story he originally conceived? I'd hope that the fact he wasn't able to make another installment for nearly two decades means they're trying to cram as much of the story into 3 as possible. Hell, they should probably try to have 3 be the conclusion of it. But like I said I haven't followed its development at all so I have no idea what's been publicly said regarding that matter. Would appreciate any info if people already know about it--no worries if not!)
     
  16. 360

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    Good question dude! As I recall the game and story is comprised of 11 chapters. Shenmue 1 represents chapter 1 whilst Shenmue 2 is chapters 3 - 5 (chapter 2 is not covered in the games; it's whilst Ryo is on the boat sailing to Hong Kong and I believe it's covered in a manga?). As for the new games Yu Suzuki has stated Shenmue 3 won't be the story's conclusion and won't therefore comprise of all the remaining chapters as he'd struggle to achieve that and conclude the story amicably in one game. He also said around the same time that conceivably he could finish the story with Shenmue 4 - which last time I checked is still his intention dependent upon the performance of Shenmue 3. So Shenmue 3 and 4 will cover the remainder of the story. Providing Shenmue 3 does well, and odds are it almost definitely will given the furore and support behind it pre-release Shenmue 4 being produced and thus the conclusion of the story should be near-definite. Let's just hope Shenmue 3 sells well.

    Hope all that helps. It's astonishing to recall that this was a series that was supposed to conclude on the Dreamcast and yet here we are. Shenmue has a bright future either way.

    EDIT: Ah here we go. Quite recent article via PlayStation Lifestyle: Yu Suzuki Says Shenmue 4 is Planned, Will Be Needed to Finish Story.
     
  17. CollectiveWater

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    Thanks 360!

    Good to know they think they can finish telling the story that was originally conceived within this and one more game.

    It'll be interesting to see how "Shenmue 3" turns out. Pretty weird coincidental timing of it being announced and then the "Yakuza" series taking off/becoming more of a big deal here in the U.S. and elsewhere that it ever had been, especially with "Yakuza 0." Of course the "Yakuza" series wouldn't exist without "Shenmue" being made, but it has refined upon and made many improvements to the template. I imagine many people will be comparing the quality of "Shenmue 3" when it comes out to "Yakuza 0" and "Yakuza 6," even though of course there will be many differences between them.

    I like the little I've seen of "Shenmue 3" from this thread, especially the images on page 15. Looks pretty sprawling, and those environments look nice. I remember the English voice acting being unintentionally hilarious (because of how cheesy/not great it was) in the first game; I'm sure it will be better in this one, but I'd also hope/assume they'll be allowing people to use native voice language with subtitles no matter what region they're in.

    Anyway even as someone that hasn't followed its development, of course still hoping all the best for it! Would be great if the dev team and Suzuki are able to finally finish telling the story as originally conceived, and I'm totally down for a sprawling adventure set in that part of the world as long as the story is pretty good and the game overall is done well enough. Excited to see the next trailer for it (hopefully it'll have a hard release date by then).
     
  18. 360

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    You're more than welcome dude! I was happy to help you out. Shenmue definitely has a bright future with both 3 and very probably 4 on the horizon. Great time to be a Shenmue fan.
     
  19. DigitalDuck

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    This is a mix of information of different ages and as a combination is not true.

    Before the release of the original game, Shenmue I was chapter 1, and Shenmue II was chapters 3, 4, and some bastardisation of chapters 5 and 6.

    Between the two games, it changed; under this scheme, Shenmue I is chapter 1, and Shenmue II is chapters 2, 3, and (part of) 4. You can see this in the notebook of Shenmue II, where chapters are specifically numbered as such, and matches development notes shown during the promotion of Shenmue Online.

    It's likely that the number of chapters has been reduced again since then; however, we know that Shenmue III will go at most as far as chapter 6 (iirc Suzuki mentioned in an interview that the game will cover two parts of the story... but I can't find it now) and will not complete the story. Shenmue IV will finish the story if the games continue the same pace that Shenmue II had, and a couple of chapters have been cut.
     
  20. 360

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    Ah right dude. Thanks for the additional clarity. Yeah I thought something about the information was off as the Shenmue 1 and 2 wikis (which is where I tried to verify the information) seemed to conflict with the reports of the Chapter coverage around the time of release. Looks like the story has evolved over time - changing during development - and this means my information might be out of date.

    If Suzuki intends to finish the story with Shenmue 4 he has to cut Chapters or something as adhering to the original outline might be nigh in impossible so it'll be interesting to see what he does.