So this pretty much settles it, even though Sega will probably still dance around it for years to come, and backs up what Roger Hector said over a decade prior, that Sega has a copy of his demos locked away in a vault. A shame we'll probably never hear them. It's extremely likely it was him beatboxing those kicks, and there's precedent for him beatboxing during his own songs (Who Is it, Stranger In Moscow & Tabloid Junkie), so it's possible they used clips from his reference tapes.
Really weird, but cool! Making demos out of nothing but your voice is a far cry from the likes of Sonic 1 & 2's demos, but that does sound like an MJ thing to do. I wonder if this was something he usually did with early demos for his songs. Can't imagine though if things got any further those would be the only demos Sega would have to work with; probably wouldn't have been easy to convert to Genesis at that level. It'd be interesting to hear how those demos would've evolved into something more workable.
Beatboxing was the main way MJ created reference tracks for his producers. Here's an early demo of "Beat It" he did for Quincy Jones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZeYw1bm53Y And here's him going in depth about his technique in a court deposition, using "Who Is It" as an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkjYcgpaS4w MJ would give the tapes of himself beatboxing the song's multitrack to his producers, and they would construct the instrumental based off that "rough cut". Assuming it was MJ's team who was soley responsible for fleshing out his demos for the Sonic 3 tracks, nobody from Sonic Team/Sega outside of those who were responsible for programming the music into the game ever worked with the demos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vrkOU5lPtE They included a demo of the multitrack tapes on this song of his posthumous album.
It's always great to hear more details of this story With the new Genesis collection coming out soon iv seen lots of people getting mad that S3&K is not on it and other people getting mad in general that it has not been remastered. I think unless Sega come's across a large sum of cash they don't know what to do with, we are never going to see these games remastered. The sole reason i think the game is on steam in the first place is a contract Sega made that has some loop hole that allows them to use it there. Regardless on what anyone think's of MJ he is the most successful solo artist of all time and alone since his death is one of the best earning artist's evrey year. Turn's out that's not really cheap to license for a mobile game, most likely the kind of contract Sega would have to get to bring S3&K to current platforms would most likely also mean Moonwalker could come to current platforms. That alone would be great
So apologies for the mega bump, but the recent Michael Jackson controversy has me wondering what the future is for S3K? I did not watch the documentary, and I feel like these allegations have been around for years so I'm not sure why it all the sudden matters now but apparently it does. Radio stations are no longer playing Michael Jackson songs, the Simpsons has removed the Michael Jackson episode from streaming and syndication, and some people are calling for streaming services to remove Michael Jackson's music. So what does this all mean for Sonic 3? Will Sega want to distance themselves from the game given it's links to Michael Jackson? Or maybe the licensing rights will become dirt cheap now? Or maybe they'll just omit the Michael Jackson tracks all together and replace them with something else (like the PC version's music or the Lego Dimension sound-alike tracks)? Maybe nothing will change and the current situation with the game will continue. I have no idea.
My feeling since Mania came out is if they do a remastered version, they should just let Tee Lopes write some new songs. He's certainly proven himself capable of writing good Sonic music. I'll always love the Icecap music but it's clearly the most legally problematic of the bunch. For an emulated re-release, how difficult would it be to sub in music from other Sonic games? Like you say you lift the Knuckles and miniboss themes from S&K, and the Spring Stadium, Diamond Dust and Volcanic Valley tracks for Carnival Night, Icecap and Launch Base respectively. Then the only track they'd have to worry about is the credits music and I'm sure they could figure out some alternative. It'd probably be easier than programming new songs into the Genesis MIDI format, though I know literally nothing about this. Like it just really sucks that Sonic 3 is like the marquee Sonic game (in my opinion) and will seemingly never get re-released because of this dumb shit.
Well the credits music is pretty easy actually, they could just release the game as Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles combined and use S&K's credits song like S3K has always used. However some new tracks by Tee Lopes would be a fine alternative to the original tracks IMO. Those Sonic 3D Blast tracks would work pretty well too, although I'm not sure about Volcanic Valley being used for Launch Base. Maybe Gene Gadget or Panic Puppet? Also if Sonic 3 & Knuckles was to be remastered like the Sonic 1 and 2 the new tracks wouldn't have to use the Genesis MIDI format as all the songs were redone for those ports anyway.
This won't change a damn thing. Jam will always be in Carnival Night, Hard Times the Remix will always be Ice Cap, the credits will always be the Stranger In Moscow demo, and I will just sit here and play my original Sonic 3 cart with my Mk1 Genesis as a giant “fuck You” to this entire situation.
Might get a pass with Ice Cap to be fair, since Hard Times preceded Buxer's involvement with Jackson. Negotiating the rights to use it on the other hand...
I don't think this will have changed anything regarding the chances of 3&K ever getting another release. I mean it should be obvious by now that there is virtually no chance at this stage with all the rumored legal stuff which has gone down. The fact that Sonic social media didn't acknowledge Sonic 3's 25th anniversary (even though they acknowledged the same anniversary for Sonic 1, 2 & CD) implies that SEGA are refusing point-blank to acknowledge 3's existence which is very sad (almost pathetic). Either SEGA are overracting or some serious shit really went down and SEGA feel like acknowledging the game could cause more trouble. The only "official" acknowledgment of Sonic 3's existence from SEGA since the last time it was released on a platform (Steam in 2011) was the official press release for Mania & Mania Plus (and their sites promoting the game etc). Yes I would accept a brand new soundtrack (with some Tee Lopes magic) if it would allow the game to finally get another release, but for all we know that isn't a realistic option or SEGA just doesn't see it as profitable to pay for a new soundtrack. At least we have the fab "Sonic 3 Complete" hack and the equally impressive "Sonic 3 AIR" widescreen port of the Steam version to keep us busy. Oh and of course there's an insane amount of Sonic 3 love in Mania...which both delights and makes me ache with frustration that we never got a 3K StealthTax remaster. Maybe one day another release of 3&K will be green-light, but I wouldn't get your hopes up.
Spoilers: I don't think Sega have any interest in re-releasing Sonic 3, regardless of news headlines. It's not like the game isn't available everywhere. If we're truly keen to live in a world where allegations against a dead man can prevent a tangentially-related video game project from being emulated, then yeah, count me out. I'm going to emulate Micheal Jackson's Moonwalker and pretend he inappropriately touches every child he rescues.
Why would SEGA still be selling Sonic 3 on Steam if there was such a problem with it? Genuine question, I don't know too much about how official emulation copyright works. But surely it must be a problem to sell it at all if there's such a huge problem with it; I know the Donkey Kong Country games were pulled from the Wii Shop and that was an emulation too for an example. Also if there's some conspiracy over SEGA just not liking it for some reason, why does Mania have more Sonic 3 representation than from any other game. Wouldn't they shoot the Mania devs down (I also read in the Rolling Stone interview that the Mania devs didn't even pick the sequence of zones which appeared in the base game). I mean there's surely some issues with the soundtrack of certain Sonic 3 levels, I don't deny that, but I do feel that people exaggerate how much of a big deal it is. I'm also very sceptical that Michael Jackson is much of an issue for the game anymore; most people don't even know he had any connection with the game whatsoever and SEGA have always denied his music made it into the game so I can't see a big PR nightmare happening on that front.
If I had to hazard a guess, perhaps it could be that SEGA are keeping it on Steam, because they feel like suddenly pulling the 2011 release of Sonic 3 & Knuckles from Steam would cause even more chatter/suspicion around the game than what already exists. I could be dead wrong (And probably am wrong.), but perhaps from SEGA's perspective the Steam release (And releases of the game prior to it.) are considered by them to be 'grandfathered', from the perspective/defense that those were released prior to all of the music comparisons and copyright/licencing rights issues surfacing more prominently. It could be a case where it's not a big enough deal to affect previous releases (Including those which could be retroactively pulled from online stores.), but at the same time is too prominent of an issue nowadays for them to re-release it again without there being legal concerns. Again, I'm probably totally incorrect about this, but just a thought I wanted to plop in here nonetheless. Alternatively, one out-there speculation is that SEGA are planning to remake Sonic 3 & Knuckles in some fashion (How they'd handle the music I don't know.), and hence are not doing any further bog standard ports/emulation releases. I'm not putting much (If any.) stock into that, though.
It is quite funny that Sonic 3's soundtrack is one of the most memorable to me (alongside Sonic R's) when I only managed to play it once as a kid. Only in the 2000s did I manage to play it (and S3K) through emulation (mostly my brother, but it's kinda the same), and the soundtrack was noticeably different from Sonic 1, 2 and Knuckles. Ice Cap theme was one of the tracks that got more endearing to me, alongside the Final Boss themes of S3K. It's still weird that, after all these years, all intel that has been found or confirmed so far has been coming at bits, as if bringing the whole thing to light was a crime or something. Too bad those scandals had to come at the worst time possible. Not only Sonic 3 but maybe even Sonic & Knuckles might've become even more memorable experiences due to that soundtrack.
It's funny, all these complicated attempts at explanations go away if you just look at how Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles combined never sells as much as either of Sonic 1 or Sonic 2 does when they're re-released. It's almost as if "not making much money" is a reason for a business to not do a thing, especially when it's a thing that requires an investment.
Idk, just seems weird they ignore the title when many consider it to be the best of the classic Sonic games.
If I'm not mistaken, the problem was the lawsuit with Brad Buxer, not with Michael Jackson. As for that documentary, it's a whole load of nothing from what I understand. Was just used as a way to deflect from the documentary on Harry Weinstein (member him? Guy who caused #metoo and will probably get off scot free cause nobody members him) that was released around the same time.
Well, I'd say that goes back to how the original Genesis sales of Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles combined (4M) didn't reach the standalone sales of either Sonic 1 (15M) and Sonic 2 (6M). But Sonic 1 and 2 were also pack-in games with the Genesis shortly after they were released. They've transcended into being games you can't divorce from the Genesis, rather than just being another game released for the console; much like Mario for Nintendo's consoles and even Crash and Spyro for the original PlayStation. Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles didn't get included as pack-in games until a couple of years later--and that was after Sega winding down their support for the Genesis to prep for the Saturn (even though 16-bit consoles were still selling well in NA). I think it also goes without saying the whole thing of the game being split into two when it was clearly supposed to be one game also did a lot more to hurt the game rather than help it, especially since Sega didn't really play up the whole notion of S3 and S&K being two halves of one whole. Rather than front your money towards promoting one big Sonic 3, you now have to divide it across two entries; and in order to still retain the two games being linked, you had to produce a new type of cartridge (the "lock-on" technology). Then there's Sonic & Knuckles having the rug pulled under it by Rare's first Donkey Kong Country, which came a few weeks later. Between the whole music controversy and the semi-forgotten status it has compared to the original two games outside the fanbase; I'm kinda convinced the only thing that can save Sonic 3&K from falling into general obscurity over time (caused by lack of re-releases) is a remake at this point. A remake with modern production values that replaces the problematic tracks with new compositions, and also firmly positions it as the one contained adventure it was supposed to be from the start; before Happy Meal promotions and development stalling kicked in. Arguably with a few new goodies added to the side (expanded co-op/competitive multiplayer and maybe borrowing a few things from Mania like the drop-dash and Mighty/Ray). And maybe, just maybe, an emulated version of the original Sonic 3/Sonic & Knuckles/Sonic 3&K included if possible.
Muchlike how Harry Gregson Williams created an amazing new theme for the Metal Gear Saga after the original TAPPY's theme turned out to be plagarised, I reckon Tee Lopes could do some good alternate tracks for the MJ Songs. Either remaster the PC collection tunes (finally free them of MIDI hell) or do some similar tracks that carry the same energy as the MJ tunes with different melodies. Regarding any future release though, I can't see SEGA exactly running at Sonic 3 right now... thank god for Mega Collection
