It would be nice if Sonic Team were given freedom to work on other things besides Sonic again. When they have the chance, we get beautiful gems like Ristar, Nights into Dreams, and very recently, Puyo Puyo Tetris. What I'd give just for a Ristar sequel! Although I agree more partnerships with Taxman and Co would be for the best. I was simply curious what would happen if Sonic Team also had access to the Retro engine. (Because Sonic Team has had separate teams working on games before, like with Sonic 2 and CD.) Would it be like handing a flutist a tuba during a garage jam, or Sonic 4: As You Imagined It. :specialed: Eh, maybe some ideas are better left unexplored.
Eh. If Sonic Team takes the Retro engine, creates tightly designed levels ala Generations, and doesn't muck around with the engine, physics and characters too much, I can see them producing a good game. Sorry for my positivity.
The main problem with Sonic Team for a long time is they either don't jump the gun enough or they jump way too far. Colors nailed that middle point very well, along with Generations. Mainly in part because they tried something new in a self-contained sense that wasn't too crazy (Wisps). When they don't go far enough, we get a vanilla, boring game like Advance 3. When they go too far, we get insane, unfitting material for the series like Sonic 06 where you literally fight God. All-in-all, I never fence-sat harder for a Sonic game in a while. I'm incredibly anxious to see how Forces turns out because I want it to do well, but everything doesn't look too good if this thread's speculation is anything to go by.
Agreed. Consistency is what Sonic Team needs to work on, and it's good that they try new things so long as it doesn't drastically affect the gameplay. Warehog in Sonic Unleashed? You could allow some fighting elements in Sonic while maintaining his speeding platforming game (which there is somewhat - there's the slide, drop dash). And like most people here, leave classic Sonic games to the experts (and anyone else new from the Sonic Scene in the future)
Sonicteam doesn't deserve to even be allowed to use the retro engine imo. It's pathetic that they are seemingly unable to make their own engine that can replicate the Genesis games. The only people I want to see using the retro engine are Taxman and the people he chooses to work with.
I don't know why you're all obsessing over the Retro Engine. They got Stealth on speed dial if they really wanted to understand how Sonic works.
The fact that Sonic Team is so tone deaf about what should be the DNA of their own brand is funny because it's so tragic. Like what, they think they can just throw in a few concepts from Mania and POOF, a product with integrity emerges. Why are they even called “Sonic Team”? I get the impression it's just a revolving door of game programmers, where the only thing which remains constant is a couple managers and a commitment mediocrity. Does anyone really believe Sonic Team can be taught this stuff? I would agree, but only in the Infinite Monkey Theorem sense. Which basically describes their track record, TBH... That's right Sonic Team, go stand on a tall hill in a lightning storm and try to catch some of that Mania stuff in a bottle. What a bunch of posers!
The current Sonic Team wasn't even involved in the classic games. Expecting them to understand them is kinda unrealistic.
Ya, expecting Sonic Team to have a fucking clue is pretty unrealistic I guess... You can't honestly believe that?
Something worth noting about Mania is that it wasn't entirely out of the ordinary as far as Sonic releases are concerned. Sonic Colors had both a console version and portable version. Sonic Generations had both a console version and portable version. Sonic Lost World had both a console version and portable version. Sonic Boom had both a console version and portable version. Following this trend, Sonic Mania acting as a prequel to Sonic Forces isn't too out of the ordinary from a budget standpoint as it has been their recent strategy for releases (granted Mania isn't on the 3ds but it is on the Switch). If we're lucky, the next time around we'll get Mania 2 which hopefully won't act like a prequel to whatever 3d Sonic Team game that's coming out.
Whenever Sonic Team's competency comes up, it's never about the art, music, code, sound design, or anything of that sort. The sticking point is almost always them missing the mark with level design, (and story cheese) which does gimp the enjoyment of every other facet in a Sonic game. Forces sure hasn't done much to inspire confidence. If they could manage better level layouts, I think better physics would naturally have to be developed around that, instead of scripted events to workaround what the game can't do. So I'll concede to that much. The Sonic IP overall needs more successes before it'll be far easier for the overall fandom to forgive the occasional flop, not Sonic Rush & Knuckles. (Imagine if Knuckles could boost glide, though. Can we have a mod of that? :v: )
I'd argue that all of those things become issues to a degree. They make good artwork and graphics, but it's always sort of fighting against them, never presenting a consistent idea of what the series visual appeal is. They make fantastic music, no doubt, but does it always get distributed properly? Did Sonic 4 really have a soundtrack befitting a classic Sonic game? Did Sonic Lost World really need to have such a strange hodge-podge of styles on display? Did the Werehog really need to have the same damn battle music play every time? And then of course, there's the fact that Sonic Team isn't really great at adapting or improvising. It takes them time to really develop an idea, and gauge where they want to go with it, thanks to the team and directors for each new title changing. Persistence usually makes their products better, but they always jump the gun and throw in things that distract them. It all stems from their inherent design philosophies clouding their judgement. Boost Sonic could probably have carried half of Sonic Forces on his own, and we might have had a great follow up to Gens as a result. But they want to pad out the game time, and have that "hook" that garners interest. We've barely seen anything of Modern Sonic, and I can only surmise that the reason is because it's so barebones and lacking in comparison to what was there before. The footage we have seen so far kind of indicate that. If Sonic Team were to get their hands on better physics and mechanics it would require the same kind of dedication and attention to detail that the group back in '94 and the Mania Team had. Made even more difficult now thanks to standards having risen exceptionally for "retraux" games. Do you really trust Sonic Team to just believe in the core mechanics as they are, and attempt to sculpt something out of them? Look at Sonic 4. First chance it had, it implemented a "gimmick" that kind of ruined the whole point of the game, for both Episodes. Same with Generations. In fact, it can be argued that the lackluster attempt at replicating the physics in Gens was deliberate, since it would have required a whole new process for the team to undergo while designing levels. Modern Sonic Team just isn't a great fit for Classic Sonic I feel. They don't really have the mindset necessary to design a game of similar quality. It's not because they suck as developers, or even that they're incompetent, they just don't understand the "crust" that holds the whole thing together.
I disagree very much with this. While it's true that the poor level design and controls tend to steal the limelight, the art and music of the series has become incredibly generic. The art and music were once defining aspects of the series, whereas now they are nothing memorable. Sure it looks "good", but sort of in a generic Pixar sense; there is nothing defining about it. The reason you don't hear as much about these aspects of the series is because they are passable, and higher-level concepts, whereas the gameplay foremost is unappealing to most people and critically flawed. It's analogous to a bespoke dress designing label, which had once set the standard for unique style and created superior garments. But then slowly degraded over time, to the extent that they now use off the shelf textiles, and while they are now being carried in multiple retail chains, they look like every other $15 sweatshop garment on the rack... Of course no one is addressing how generic they look, because they can't even keep the straps and seams from separating. They continue putting their brand on the tag, but it remains that brand in name only. Just think about it, what is signature about Modern Sonic anymore, aside from maybe orange checkerboard and rehashing Green Hill. Consider the aesthetic of technology in this "world". There are so many ways of presenting this technology, but rather than develop it into something with style like, dieselpunk, or cyberpunk, future-noir, utopian, retro-future, etc., its just... "modern". I mean, Robotnik is supposed to be this polluted villain, and when looking at his tech it all looks glossy and clean and as though its running off of renewables. And why? Because it's lazy. Same goes for the plot of each game, just throw in some supernatural monster with no relevance to an overarching narrative of the series, easy. Wash hands, repeat.
The only examples of dirty Eggman tech in the Classics are Scrap Brain and Sonic CD. Otherwise his tech appears to be pretty clean.
Eggman from the classic games is an eccentric inventor. He makes things that are bonkers, off the wall, sometime clearly duct taped together (the bosses in each level just being extensions of his ship). He uses animals to power his robots...that resemble animals. How can you not see at least some sort of dark irony in that? His bases reflect his persona by being equally off the wall. Lights and beams constantly flicker, exposed pistons gyrating in the background, gimmicks like teleport tubes and ring transporting things. The guy is am egotistical, goofball madman, and it's represented perfectly in the classics. Meanwhile, what traits do Eggman's modern fortresses, robots, or worlds do to represent his character? He's still a bit eccentric, but moreso in a losing his mind kind of way, than being a goofy goober. He's also a lot more impatient, as he builds really big mechs and giant death beams to just get shit done, rather than planning or biding his time. A reasonable characterization for him. But what about the world he occupies conveys that. His robots are all generic and lifeless. His fortresses (with the exception of Eggmanland) are all bland and same-y. His plans are so one-dimensional it's become a trend in the series. He's supposed to be a little nuttier right? Why not have the robots be erratic, have exposed spark plugs that can damage the player, robots that chase you relentlessly until they kamikaze you. Where's the bases like Eggmanland. The weird, cooky, completely out of left field base befitting of a crazed scientist? This is the kind of stuff Vector's talking about. The series lacks that identity. That ability to express it's characters and worlds in a way that anyone could reasonably understand and appreciate. Instead they just keep throwing new elements in to give themselves excuses to keep things fresh and gauge interest. But those elements almost always get thrown away or recycled in the least effective way possible (see Green Hill). Why bother getting invested in Sonic's world and aesthetic, when it's bound to change to some other bland thing two games from now? Forces can't get away with just having levels for Sonic to run through now, because it wanted to have a "serious" story. So you BETTER give me a damn good reason for Eggman to turn the ruins into a Casino other than, "eh, he wanted to make them a casino".
In the classics his technology was depicted as more mechanical, or militaristic. Whereas in modern the bosses increasingly look like glossy robot pokemon. When you look at Robotnik's environments in the past they were often decayed and dirty, whereas now they often are just natural locations with a few robots here and there. The robots themselves were zombie-like roboticized animals, specific to each zone, with razors, or blades, etc. Whereas now they are often just walking glowing garbage cans, or other uninspired designs, think orb-bot, cube-bot, etc. Everything now seems to have chrome and gloss paint, it's just a very generic depiction of technology. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, I'm just speaking generally. Whereas before Robotnik seemed to naturally fit in an industrial wasteland, like Robotropolis from Sonic SatAM, now he is depicted as inhabiting a clean technological palace, like that of Sonic Boom. Granted, these depictions are not from the games themselves, but they would have sought approval from Sega, and we can clearly see how those conceptions are reinforced in-game. The difference is night to day. There were so many images available on Google that made my point I won't even bother posting them, just look for yourself if interested. I honestly don't know how anyone can be a true Sonic fan and not have noticed this. It's as though the whole nature v. industry narrative was dropped, I guess it was just to cumbersome for Sega, now we get magic sorcerers with each installment, and apparently Tails is a tech genius on par with Robotnik, there are clearly no larger guiding principals or strong vision, no flavor. EDIT: Sean gave a better response than me, haha, my words just add to his. PS: if anyone cares to see the embodiment of Robotnik in interior design, look up Boca Do Lobo, or Visionnaire. They are amazingly expensive modern furniture brands with a sinister quality. This is how I picture Robotnik's personal quarters, anyway.
Sorry for the double post but I wanted to address this... I'm not being totally clear I guess. I'm not saying that his tech has to be dirty per se, but it shouldn't be value neutral. When you look at the majority of Robotnik's tech now, not only is it incredible generic, but you can't even tell that it's "bad". Chemical Plant, Oil Ocean, Metropolis, and Wing Fortess, may not be "dirty", but they are clearly negative. Modern Robotnik's tech is visually techno-utopian, if anything. There is nothing sinister about it. It has no character. In my just previous post I gave the example of Boca Do Lobo, and Visionnaire. There are modern super-luxury furniture brands. They aren't dirty, but they are sinister, they exude a narrative about the person who lives here. Robotnik's tech no longer says anything except, this guy has technology. It's not interesting. BUT, I'm not only referring to Robotnik's tech, I'm saying the aesthetic of Modern Sonic games as a whole is generic, especially by comparison to the classics. Mania actually did a very a good job of recapturing that aesthetic both musically and visually. If some of the fans on Retro have a hard time understanding this then I am even less optimistic for Sonic Team...
Oh ok I get what you mean now. Yea I guess that is a missing aspect. I for one kind of like the modern techno-utopian style (that's mostly just because I like it aesthetically) but I see what you mean with it not making sense given Eggman's thing being about destroying nature. That's one thing I'll give to Forces. It does at least seem to bring some of that back into the picture, even if he still makes use of techno-utopian stuff. I at first thought you were referring to like, SatAM Robotnik which was very on the nose as far as tech vs. nature, far more so than the actual games. That's why I was confused at first.
