Okay so I wrote a really angry comment about how Casino Forest is bad and I hate it but my internet glitched out and I lost all of it and it was really long so have this tl;dr: >Casino Forest is such a fucking level design mess, ONLY TWO HAZARDS IN THE ENTIRE STAGE AND THEY'RE RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER, Casino Night also didn't have many hazards or enemies but it didn't have TWO HAZARDS PLACED RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER AND LEAVE IT AT THAT. >It's also just a really wasted opportunity as a level concept, I like the idea of a sacred forest shrine place being torned down and turned into this grimey casino, but it's not used creatively at all, it feels more like an excuse to reuse some level assets from Lost World (since it reminded me a lot of the forest levels and the ruins in those), as there are no unique setpieces or gimmicks that have to do with the fact that it's some ancient ruins apart from...two spikeballs right next to each other. Why not have you run through the stage WHILE it's being torn down and turned into a casino, and then have you go inside the casino in parts that have been already built and then pop out and fall into the ruins deep below or something, just anything beyond "generic casino zone with different background". >Gotta love those physics of...slowing down while running downhill? Good job SEGA, it's not like you made Sonic 1-3 or anything. Even Generations' physics weren't that bad. >I loved Generations! I enjoyed Colours! I had fun with Unleashed! But this game just looks like a rushed mess that took the worst parts of each. And also to end it off, I know I've already posted this before, but this image is becoming more real by the day and I hate that so much. At least the music has impressed me! Like, most of the soundtrack has fallen flat to me except for Fist Bump which is so cheesy it's perfect and mediocre at the same time. But when I listened to Tag Team Section A Green Hill I actually loved it and had this feeling of "Holy shit this song is great" that I haven't had with any other song in the soundtrack except maybe lyricless Fist Bump when I heard it for the first time. Casino Forest's song ain't half bad either.
I think I'm going to watch some let's plays of this game prior to purchase. That or see if there's any interest in mod support. I wouldn't mind seeing what this game would be like with allllll these boost pads and most of these springs removed.
I expect this to be on par with Lost World: a game with promise but under utilized potential, and in the end, forgettable due to boring gameplay. I will probably buy the PC version to give it a chance. Steam lets you return any game in your library if you've had it for under 2 weeks and played for less than 2 hours. Since there's no sign of a demo, if it doesn't hook me 1.5 hours in, it's getting returned.
Not going to debate "good" or "bad" because, frankly, that's a waste of time, but throughout no part of that video did I try to rationalize why Eggman built a casino on top of old ruins. I'm still not because I don't care. I just accept it as a surreal concept that I find visually appealing (Yes, I do realize that I did rationalize it as a "tourist attraction", but I still find it appealing even when I stop thinking of it like that). This may be mostly due to me watching the video almost immediately after waking up, but I didn't even think of the place as something Eggman built. Having a reason for things happening is nice, but I'm not always going to be concerned about any sort of explanation in visual art, especially not in cartoony video games that prioritize gameplay where the "why" of the level design is far more more important to me than the "why" of its existence in-universe.
What I'm reading here is that the level art failed to stimulate your imagination. Proof of bad concept design! You don't care because you've been given no reason to care. The artist's job is to make you care.
Yeah they do, if not why are you exploring through them? Outside of the obvious, "cuz it's a vidya game gais", argument. Creating motive and tension is one of the things Sonic's supposed to do best. This ongoing sense that the world you're traveling through is actually there (in the game/character's mind) is part of what compels you to explore it. This might seem strange to say, but games like Sonic can go beyond just being shit on your TV screen and actually kind of get emotional feedback from you. Not bawling your eyes out or making you a better person, but making you question things and tickling your curiosity and desire to know more. If you're going to argue that it can't or that Sonic Forces isn't going for that, then explain why the game has a plot. One that ties into the main game I might add. Yeah, the lack of elements mixing together is an issue, but you need to know why these elements are together to begin with. Mirage Saloon doesn't just have flippers and balloons cause sawnik gimmicks. They actually tie into the theme of the stage being a sort of saloon, casino, hangout area that just happens to be in the desert. So now I can suspend my disbelief a little bit and accept shit like floating guns that launch you forward really fast. Just cause this mishmashed mess has bumpers and a slot machine doesn't mean it's mixing elements, it's just slapping shit in and calling it a day.
Sonic levels go for the surreal and cartoony, that much we already know. But Eggman pollutes, destroys, and machinifies whatever he gets his hands on. He's got the entire world under his thumb, and the story trailer makes it very clear that he wants Sonic and anyone that stands up to him deader than a doornail. So a bright, eccentric casino practically built for Sonic with barely any actual danger in it that's almost like Eggman just flew in, placed bumpers and ignored the actual ruins, with pure clean water for visual splendor while big casino castles light up the not-Silent Forest background, feels incredibly out of place to me. Less like the Eggman in Forces built it and more like Classic Eggman accidentally dropped off a half-finished base. Even Carnival Night and Casino Night/Street both entirely dedicated themselves to their trope despite being on islands and landmasses that wouldn't have many people come in (presumably for tourism purposes), but here it's a casino in a remote forest that no one but Sonic would probably ever go to. The series has never really given us a reason to think about it all in detail or why things make sense, and sure, maybe it's just Forces' bad situation making me consider this. But I feel like it just sort of goes against what the game's about, especially since two of the zones so far are a dried up and dying Green Hill and a whole city on fire (that thankfully doesn't seem to explicitly have it out for Sonic as if it were alive, unlike a certain other city in crisis). Like.. a blatant mish-mash pander without a lot of cohesive thought put into it. Tails doesn't even comment on the casino in the IGN footage, they're just looking for someone.
I thought it looked ok when I watched the video, but after reading people's comments and paying closer attention my view has kinda soured on it. I don't really mind that the physics aren't the same as the Genesis ones, because just like in Generations they aren't trying to be. As long as there's some momentum, unlike the unnatural feeling Sonic 4 (which as a numbered sequel SHOULD have had Genesis style physics), I should be ok with it. The amount boosters and springs do worry me a bit, but it doesn't look like the whole level will be automated like what we've seen before. Possible wonky physics and boosters aside, this is the first level I've seen that I've thought was ok. As for the casino, its not like any justification was given to any of the other levels like it other than Casinopolis. Eggman had a playroom in the Egg Carrier, made his base into a theme park in Unleashed and had a casino section of his factory in Lost World. He controls 99% of the world in this game now. He can put a casino wherever he damn pleases.
I wondered how much the failure of RoL affected the budget that the Sonic branch gets cause Casino forest is basically Silent Forest mashed with the Casino Night DLC from Generations. What happened to the development of this game? I remember a few years ago someone mentioned they saw what Sonic Team was working on and that it wasn't like the gameplay from Generations or Lost World. What did they see? RoL? The avatar gameplay? Did they saved that game for next year and came up with this game in the last 2 years? There was that interview a couple of months back that the months after the releases of Mania/Forces were going to be very important for the brand. So maybe? Anyways, Sega should get invest in newer talent and let Sonic Team take a break from Sonic for a while. I think they found good hands in the Mania team and they could always supervise like they did with Mania. They could do what they did in the mid 90s and focus on Nights or make a new IP. This could give them more inspiration for when they eventually comeback to Sonic.
If they are recycled, they've at least been given a minor facelift, I'm pretty sure - there's a bit more texture to the ruins than I can see in Silent Forest.
Didn't see this Polygon piece linked or mentioned. A particularly sad, hilarious, and alarming bit: Fairly in character of Sonic Team, as a general entity, to completely miss the take home point of something. If this is their attempt to capture the way Classic Sonic moves, they're finding a way to look in all of the wrong places. Should be Episode III. :v:
It might just be me, but for some reason Casino Forest looks like someone made it from existing Unreal Engine assets in Sonic GDK.
would be great if you could make an actual contribution to the discussion instead of needlessly ruffling feathers Adding my "wow this looks pretty horrid and amateur" to the pile. I think a Casino Forest concept could absolutely be well-executed by a team who had any creative vision to speak of. Instead this looks, as someone said, like they slapped discount Casino Night assets into the foreground of Silent Forest. With the Sonic 4 tier level design though you could've told me this was a Generations mod and I would've believed it. Poor show. What happened here? Like, with this whole game? I hate Lost World with a passion and yet it's looking like a more polished product than this. After all the rebooting and attempts at refocusing the narrative and gameplay mechanics, after all the in-joking PR trying to re-establish themselves as self-aware of their missteps, this is the best we get? It's got the narrative tone of Shadow, the structural mess of 06, the level design philosophy of Sonic 4 and the gameplay depth of a cheap mobile game. I am actually shocked at how badly they screwed this up.
You know, I only have one thing to say about all of this: I am not buying this game. A game with Sonic the Hedgehog in it just ain't worth much to me. For others, that means instabuy or wait for a discount but that still ends in pointless discussion about bad to mediocre games which wouldn't even be acknowledged otherwise. I'm gonna try to stay away from this thread because that's too much time and effort on something I no longer wish to care about.
Okay, I think we're reaching a point where people that like the game are starting to actively get frowned upon. Let's backpedal right now before this tread become more of a salt mine that it already is. I really don't want to become one of these 15 years old trial members that says "u guy don't like it becuse your old" But god damn, seriously ? Can't you just open your eyes for one second and realize that maybe, just maybe, the game is good and just not made for you ? I think this topic can have some very interesting arguments and discussions And don't want to defend this game blindly. It's not perfect, far from it. But "bad"... seriously ? This is bad. This is bad. This is bad. Sonic Forces, however, look like a pretty fun game to play.
You kinda just did the thing you said you were trying not to do; not a really good stance. In order to understand how something's bad you have to break it down. Many of us have broken down the elements, gone frame by frame even, and have found those elements to be bad. If you think we're wrong, provide something other than "it's just not made for you". That's not a valid rebuttal, that's a logical fallacy. And on this topic, I'm pretty sick of the people who waltz in (trial members more often than not) to wax cynical about the people here who are just calling it like they see it. Like the game anyway? Fine, but all this "give it a chance" nonsense is a load of rubbish. Are you trying to say that after seeing these exact missteps time and time again that we're somehow providing baseless arguments? The people who still defend this game are likely the same people who think all those previous games were good, and if that's the case, I'm happy for you. But generally this board is full of people with a more critical disposition, and you're not providing as useful a hot take as you think.
I don't even think the game is all that great, just y'know, fun enough for me, not franchise-destroying. I'm really not digging the "anyone who likes this has no standards" attitude. Like, think what you want about the game, hell think what you want about the type of people who want to play it, but some of this is just rude and derivative. It's not even about the game itself at this point. It's why I left the SEGA Forums for SSMB, and it's part of why I joined Retro when SSMB turned into the same shit. I thought things were supposed to be more mature here, but nobody seems to like the idea of agreeing to disagree anymore.
I mean with the ramp one it doesn't make sense why you would need the spring to begin with. Could use a autojump to let it get you to the point it wants you to. To make you feel like you're doing something but instead it leaves it to a spring that surprises you. The other one would make more sense if the area it was in had enough room for the spring to come out nicely. Theres a lot I pointed out on my twitter when I was really looking at this thing. So many little things you don't notice at first but watching it a second time you start to notice more of it. This annoys me a bit since in Generations they would have cameras zoom out to try to show you things and have warning signs to let you know if you can die in places. Here this looks like a death pit but fools you. I just feel that is poor design to me. I'm positive I'll have fun with the game but seeing these things just annoy me. And this here leads me to believe they seem to just make the collision for the level and then terrain and lastly the layout object placement itself. Instead of doing it with collision only then add and adjust. Cause no reason that platform couldn't be adjusted to be longer to fit 3 springs nicely across. And lastly the 2d levels we've seen go on a straight axis and have no twisting or turning to make the shadow direction change. So you are always going right on the X axis only. Generations for Classic had every level either move you into another layer of the level playing with depth or had the stage be twisted/rotated to make you feel like you were going around somewhere. Only levels that don't have this in Gens Classic levels is Chemical Plant and Planet Wisp. Was hoping we'd see some complexity for the 2d levels for Classic Sonic but still haven't yet.
