Interesting, I've seen that happen a few times before, but usually it's when both hands grab Tails at the same time. How did this happen?.
An implication that isn't the goal. The gotta go fast implication has never been heavy enough to pressure the player into a play style, which is one of the good things about the games. You can't give a classic Sonic to a new player, watch them play how they want as the game has always allowed us to, and then go "Didn't you get it? Hurry up!" It's a challenge by accident, not by design, that applies randomly without the player knowing when. If it did apply always it would mean a significant change to the game's current play style. You can also complete the entirety of Sonic 2's EHZ without jumping. That's another challenge by accident, and I'm grateful for it not killing me when I fail at it or prefer to play another way. Since an accidental and un-foreseeable challenge is not really a reason to support something, maybe check how much you're running on the nostalgia factor. I get that but the time limit is hard to defend now that I've seen it at its best and worst. Its best is barely a thing. It adds so little to the game in play, never had proper focus and thus design, all the while running larger risks. The one reason I can think of for keeping the time limit: lore. Sonic has to free the critters before the roboticisation completes. I like that. It's not a strong plus though; it doesn't even apply in every Act 1. It would be ironic if it happened. Situations and real examples of the time limit problem had already been described in this discussion; including exploring, and roaming to survive. Praising A to B level design, not much that I've seen. The level structures reward exploration all the time. The lives, rings, and the special stages systems encourage it. Backtracking restraints exist to control it. Point A to B sounds to me like one way to play the game that isn't that fun, and fortunately exploration is another well-known way.
I like the time limit, but I won't care much if it's gone. I'll just miss the "oh shit look what time it is gotta juice!" feeling I get when I've been dicking around so long the timer started to flash.
As the game has always allowed us to? You mean like with a time limit? Are you saying they accidentally implemented a time limit in Sonic 1? And it applies in every level, not randomly. What even is this argument? Considering I've complained about other "features" that have been carried over from the classic games, it's safe to say I'm not running on the nostalgia factor here. Maybe save those complaints for the people commending the game for giving a massive time bonus at 9:59, or arguing that being able to fall off the plane in Mirage Saloon is a good thing because that was how Sonic 2 did it (nobody here is arguing that, but my YouTube comments - whew). I find that if I actually want to explore these levels, I have to fight the game for control because it wants to spring-spring-spring-slope-ramp-spring-spring me to the finish. I enjoy exploration, but when the game itself is trying to force me to the end it becomes less enjoyable. The level design in Mania actively discourages exploration.
Carnival Night Act 2 also says hi. Also am I the only one surprised that neither of the Sonic CD levels does a Mushroom Hill Act 2 and you'd run through different time zones? Thought that would be a given.
That would have been a lot of work for a minimal amount of time spent in each time zone. And wouldn't have so effectively allowed either zone to flourish. I'm glad they went with the route of each act being a different time zone in SSZ and blending together the time zones in MMZ. Still surprised that MMZ and OOZ even ended up in the game, honestly. They weren't kidding when they said that not every level would be a fan favourite. Great choice bringing back those two stages.
This is a very common thing on this forum that bothers the hell out of me. Now that I already know everything there is to know about Mania (and then some), I can comfortably disappear from here (again) indefinitely or until new titles are announced. It's hard to admit on here that some of people's posts literally make me nauseated.. but there, I said it. Mania is absolutely amazing! I have no complaints even considering all of the nit-picking madness that happens here all the time, it's just a game. Games often have glitches, live with it! Anyway, I'm out! Take care, folks! P.S. - Only true Sonic fans will take the game as it is and have fun with it no matter what's wrong with this and that. Like Taxman said in his interview, it's all about having fun!
The time limit's never really been a problem IMO until 3&K, and even then that was only limited to a few of the marathon levels (Marble Garden, Carnival Night, Sandopolis, and Death Egg). The majority of Mania's levels are a lot larger though. They probably should had increased the time limit or added some mechanic that allows time to be shaved time off the clock. Mixed on removing it though, since the levels, while having multiple routes to take and explore, are still based on one linear objective; they're not exactly at the point of being Metroidvania genres. I also do appreciate the time system holding a large influence on the player's score at the end of the level. Can't help but feel that removing the time element would take away some of the "arcade experience" framework the original games were (partially) built on. (On that note, I'm gonna quickly plug the "Let's criticise classic gameplay" topic I bumped a couple of days ago, as I feel the recent time --and boss battle-- critiques apply to that topic, alongside other subjects we feel could be improved on concerning the Genesis gameplay.) Yeah, I remember when people told classic Sonic fans "all you guys do is complain!" back when Sonic 4 hit too. Obviously Mania is lightyears away a proper followup to the original games compared to Sonic 4, and some people can overanalyze elements of the game that are considered minuscule or trivial to most. But let's not pretend critique has no merit whatsoever. I'd argue in a way it's what helped Mania get off the ground in the first place, rather than us, say, getting a third Sonic 4 episode that continued to miss the point of the classics.
I mean with whatever play style we wanted. The time limit started off as a very distinct _absence_ of pressure. Play styles other than "gotta rush to the end" were clearly welcomed and rewarded. You quoted what I wrote -- Challenge by accident -- and then asked if I actually said something else. Since the topic of challenge came into this discussion from your own reply to "why time limit", I know you are able to tell apart time limit and time limit's challenge. So I don't know how I can reply here without sounding patronising. I'm saying what I said: challenge by accident. Ok cool. But still I wonder then, because it's easy to show that the 1 positive you find in keeping a time limit doesn't really work. It never got on the players' radars until 3 years after its creation, when it started popping up not as a deliberately crafted play element, but as a surprise inconvenience. We'll have to disagree on that since exploration is behind a few of the game's fundamentals. But I get what you're saying; I could even say the game encourages and discourages exploration. Nevertheless, when it comes to this topic of the time limit being a pain, that pain comes mostly from the clash with the games' deliberate and fundamental encouragement to explore that has been in play since 1991. @Yeow Lol, that was perfect. :v:
No. Stop. This zealotry is exactly what's wrong with the fanbase. We should absolutely be critical about something we enjoy. It allows for improvement and evolution in the games. Under no circumstances should anyone be chastised for pointing out issues they see in a game. That makes this a discussion forum, not a reaction channel.
I have been trained this decade to believe everything online is sincere unless there's a "/s" afterward.
Well, then maybe answer the question of why there's a time limit in the first place? If you ask whether I think there should be a time limit in S3K or SCD, you might find I have a different answer; because those games do encourage exploration in a way that Sonic 1 (hell, Marble Zone is practically linear), Sonic 2 (most zones run on a strictly two-layer system, with only occasional offshoots for items and rings), and Sonic Mania (sprawling layout, but objects push you through most of it) simply don't. Of course, there are zones in these games that are exceptions - Green Hill, Star Light, Emerald Hill and Aquatic Ruin come to mind; but it's no coincidence that these are also the shortest zones in their games. In fact, I'd go so far as to say if you're haven't explored S3K or SCD, you've been playing those games wrong - but I wouldn't say this is even remotely true of S1, S2, or Mania. I don't agree there's been a fundamental encouragement to explore since 1991; I think this is something that developed as time went on.
I think Mania's approach to exploration is more route based due to the secret rings and such. I don't think it's quite like Sonic 1 or 2 in that regard as those games didn't encourage it cause the emeralds themselves were acquired at checkpoints/stage goal. That being said, Mania's exploration is, as I said, primarily route based. It feels like the intent is that you find stuff on multiple playthroughs, not necessarily all at once. So I think on this end we agree, but I do want to clarify that it's not discouraged so much as it is encouraged a bit differently than say, 3&K, where you often go through many a breakable wall or what have you. So yeah that's about where I stand on the timer thing too.
That sounds reasonable. I know I certainly have taken different routes on each of my playthroughs, so it's not as though it's linear - just that it seems more of a "choose your rollercoaster" ordeal. To further your point: however much you explore, and however fast you go, it's impossible to get all of the big rings in Flying Battery or Metallic Madness in one playthrough - a restart or second playthrough is required.
Yup! That's pretty much how I see it anyways. Really rewards multiple playthroughs in that sense and makes you want to scour all of them IMO, vs. one of the major things about Sonic 2 (& 1 sometimes) that I really don't like, where there's just clearly one best route usually, because of how you acquire emeralds and whatnot. That being said I'd love for them to mash in some of that 3&K exploratory lean in design alongside what they have now because I think it would mesh REMARKABLY well. The reason a lot of critics and other people like this game is cause it rewards multiple playthroughs in this way, so I'd like the next game they work on to really build on that and have it be rewarded even more expansively ala 3&K without removing what makes the current levels great. I REALLY appreciate that they spread the big rings around even the low/easy to reach routes because it really does make you want to check them all out.
