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Sonic Mania (Switch, PS4, Xbox One, PC...Netflix?)

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TimmiT, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Slower platforming can be done and 3&K often times does it very well. It just need to be at reasonable pace and not overly technical. You mention lack of movement options, and it's the exact reason why I consider Sonic not so nimble in terms of exploration in comparison to other platformers (I'm not counting Tails or Knuckles here, since I'm not experienced with them and I'm focusing only on Sonic). If the level design wants you to go constantly fast, then you need to navigate Sonic between various bumpers, boosters and other "obstacles" when you want to hug particular walls in search of secrets. As for the inconsistency - I wouldn't call it that. The slower parts should be used as a contrast. If you are going extremely fast in every level, then the speed as the reward devaluates with time and makes levels less distinct, even if you like it or not. For you the gimmicks are enough, to mix things up, but not for me, especially when those also are used for speed gain (or I should say - permanent level advancement).

    And I kinda understand that people like this. I would attribute the easy-going fast-advancing level design as one of the factors of Mania success, since it makes levels easier to swallow and get the thrill out of it. Great for people who just wanna go fast. I prefer the healthy mix, since it makes speed parts more appreciated.

    As for Extras. People complain, because it's a wasted potential. Yeah, those are bonuses, but they are so limited without good reason, that it makes people baffled.
     
  2. XCubed

    XCubed

    Will Someday Own a Rent-A-Center Oldbie
    Holy shit that's hilarious!

    Another thing I haven't seen mentioned (unless it was a few hundred pages ago)....are Bean, Bark, and Fang/Nack just illusions/Heavy Magician? Also, when I saw a run through of Mirage Saloon Act 1, it was Bean throwing the bomb on the Tornado, but when I was playing (Sonic & Tails) it was Bark who was on a turtle that fired its usual orb attack, but hit the Tornado's engine. If they rotate based upon whether you are Sonic, Tails, or Sonic & Tails, this is awesome!
     
  3. Stimil Rc.

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    I remember now... I got killed by that and I was pissed. Unlike every other crushing death, that one just felt unfair.

    While we're on the subject of crushing, yesterday I realized that jumping apparently shrinks the hitbox a bit. This got me killed when jumping over some retracting spikes that were a bit too close to the ceiling as Super Sonic:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-saJ-NfCjrc

    Today, I also got crushed on those yellow pillar elevators in Titanic Monarch 2. I didn't even know that they could crush.

    I also finally managed to beat the game with all seven Chaos Emeralds in one sitting as Sonic by himself. Took me three full playthroughs, but I'm finally ready to play as Knuckles now. Not sure if I'll ever play as Tails, though... Does he even have exclusive paths?
     
  4. Deef

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    • Level Design overall has a Chemical Plant Syndrome
      I agree that speed-wise the levels can mix together a bit more than they used to. It's funny that for all the complaining over the years about free speed and automation, Mania actually has stepped up the free speed a notch from Sonic 3. It's quite a noticeable difference.

      I do think the best classic level designs we've seen are in Mania. SOZ1 and GHZ2 are kinda perfect for me. But at the same time, there are probably about 30 more horizontal springs in the game than there needs to be. I do like Mania's levels; overall they outdid my expectations. But still your comment about the speed blending levels together is on point, imo. However I don't think the free speed hurts exploration at all. I think Mania has done a great job on the exploration side of things.
    • Too many crush opportunities
      I agree. Mainly I think the algorithm that decides crushing needs to be fixed.
    • Where are more Bonus Stages?
      On one hand, I had more fun completing Mania's bonus stage than any other classic's bonus stages. Hands down. Completing all the Blue Spheres was intense fun.
      On the other hand, as has been pointed out, zero relation to the actual game you're playing is disappointing. Once they're done, the game feels littered with useless starposts.
      Variation-wise, I think 1 type of endlessly-changing bonus stage trumps 3 types of static bonus stages. We all know Blue Spheres already has a ridiculous number of variations, so not taking advantage of that in a way that affected the player's current game was a real miss imo.

      On that note, the "Mania" Blue Spheres stages have next to no variation. Its Blue Sphere stages are so similar I wonder if it's a bug. Still waiting for anyone else to notice this.
    • Bonus features tied to the No Save Mode
      Reasonable for completing saves, imo. But once that's done, yes I don't see the need to stop players from using what they want. I'd be comfortable if it was even locked behind the Super completion.

      I would guess the main reason for it is to cement the drop dash more as the in thing. Since Mania uses Sonic CD jumping, the insta-shield loses half its power anyway. And while the peel-out looks cool, it doesn't really serve a useful purpose and for that reason I'd actually always keep the peel-out as an 'on-the-side' extra, like Mania has done.

      In case you aren't aware, you can level select the No Save also.
    • No Continues and painful Game Over
      Yeah I'm yet to find a continue. It doesn't bother me personally however since, like most of us here, when would we ever need them? But also I actually like the Sonic 3 save system. I'm very comfortable with the game saying "You lost ALL of your lives? Do the level again. All of it." If a boss is tough, I find it fitting that the ticket to access him is also tough. I prefer that over easy restarts on bosses.
    • Missing zone transitions?
      This is a shame yeah.



    The change to Knuckles' control is probably my biggest annoyance.
    The water shield change is a bit hit and miss too. Its non-spam-ability is a loss, and typically I don't like any move in a classic Sonic where you can't actually tell exactly if it's going to work or not.
     
  5. Sean Evans

    Sean Evans

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    Putting something as essential as speed behind what is to some players a brick wall already devalues it, because they can't even attain it without added assistance. Blocky, slow platforming is not a strength for Sonic, because there's not a lot you can do to make it terribly interesting without having a ton of fluff in between. It doesn't take advantage of any of the stuff that makes Sonic games fun, and sort of shifts the focus in gameplay. Besides, why would you want to settle for lame run and jump platforming when you can do stuff like this:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This is the kind of platforming that Sonic excels at, and it works with speed. So instead of slowing it down to make speed "look" better, why not have fun little things for the player to do in between all the speedy stuff, like swing on vines or bounce off trampolines. Then turn those into platforming challenges, so the player can't just cost through all of it. That's why slowing down parts of the game doesn't add a lot of clever contrast, because you're doing the same thing just a less exaggerated, slower version. Riding a mech walker in Megaman X adds nice contrast because it's different enough to make it unique, but still relies on the regular game's mechanics to be fun. Having a well paced level be bogged down by some slow, precise platforming is just tedious and only works against Sonic to me. To clarify, I'm not saying every moment has to be fast, I just think a higher emphasis on it isn't necessarily a bad thing.
     
  6. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    Nothing wrong with doing stuff like that, but the problem is that it's basically just all that, and it leads to the levels being "it plays itself but occasionally you can take shortcuts".

    Levels like Press Garden and Lava Reef get it right, with a good mix of all speeds.

    And this is exactly my problem with the level design. It's "here's a small platforming challenge, great you're done, now hold down for thirty seconds while we take you to the next platforming challenge".
     
  7. Swinging the vines or using a trampoline also doesn't help because this types of gimmicks also strip much of the skill required in navigating the level. Platforming challenges, don't need to be blocky, or hard, or slow. Look at Act 2 of Angel Island as a good example. A mix of platforming parts and speed. When the level consists most of the Chemical Plant Zone chicaning slopes up and down, when there is not enough stuff that player actually can do to finish the level. You can run fast for a while, but it will become boring if nothing interesting happens midway.

    Not every "slow part" needs to be a Marble Zone style slog.
     
  8. Dr. Corndog

    Dr. Corndog

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    Cool as it is, I'd prefer the Peel-Out not be a standard part of Sonic's moveset. So much has been made lately of the need and reward for building up momentum in Sonic games (and it's true), and the Peel-Out kills that. Yes, there's the Spin Dash, but there you're forced into a ball, so it's a trade-off.
     
  9. Lapper

    Lapper

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    Level design all seemed quite balanced to me.
    Even when there are speed sections, I appreciate being in control full control of them rather than scripted like EVERY LOOP EVER in modern games, and EVERY RAMP IN GENERATIONS.

    Not to mention, this game really rewards you well for leaving the beaten path, and opting for the less automatic routes.
     
  10. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    How is being forced to roll a trade off? Rolling opens up the game more. If anything, the super peel out has more of a trade off.
     
  11. Lapper

    Lapper

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    When rolling you cant make yourself accelerate so the speed isn't quite as keepable.
     
  12. Interesting disucssion, and even more interesting that some people here are bringing up things like automation and other things like that in this thread. I say that because although I have been brought up on Genesis games, particularly S3&K the last game I have played was Sonic Rush on the DS. Actually I was wondering what was everyone's take on that game in terms of level design, and how would you compare to Mania? Just curious.
     
  13. Plorpus

    Plorpus

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    I think most people would agree that Rush's level design doesn't touch Mania's, whether they like the game or not. I personally love the game for what it is but it's a different beast.

    On the subject of automation in the classic style games I think that for most people a certain amount is what gives Sonic its charm. I've always loved the sections in Chemical Plant and Hydro City where you can press down and end up losing control and smashing things like a supersonic bowling ball. There's no real skill involved, but I don't think there has to be. There's an exhilaration to it that no other game quite touches, and you're unlike later games the controls aren't wrestled away from you. When you go careening down slides in Sonic 2 you're still ultimately the one who does it and you can jump or try and slow down if you want, rather than Sonic 4's (and seemingly Forces) near-scripted paths.
     
  14. LowSeasCaroz

    LowSeasCaroz

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    The level design was actually the thing I liked the most about Mania (besides the artwork). That said, my favourite Sonic game is Sonic 2, and Mania definitely felt more like Sonic 2 than 3, so I guess I can understand why Sonic 3 fans would have problems with Mania's level design.

    ...I just really never liked the way levels like Angel Island Zone are designed. They don't take much advantage of Sonic's abilities and just have a couple of loop the loops thrown in because it's an obligatory thing to have in a Sonic game.
     
  15. Plorpus

    Plorpus

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    Honestly Mania felt pretty similar to 3 to me personally. It kinda split the difference between 2 and 3 I guess.
     
  16. LowSeasCaroz

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    Well granted, I haven't really gotten to the Knuckles part of Mania yet (I was not a fan of Knuckles' levels in Sonic 3&K at all), maybe that's where that Sonic 3 feeling is hiding? Mania does have some Sonic 3-esque parts, like the entirety of Hydrocity (because it's almost exactly like the original Hydrocity, just without the crushing wall and slightly changed level design) or the wonky gravity when running on ceilings. Mirage Saloon did feel significantly different from many of the other levels though, it was definitely more CD-esque, but I can't quite point out why exactly I felt that way.

    Anyway, here's that small graphics bug (Sonic holding onto nothing) I described in a post yesterday:
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Gammatron

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    Yeah, I'd say the level design is most like Sonic 3. Every stage has GOTTA GO FAST segments and platforming segments. They're also huge and sprawling.

    Sonic 1 and CD are slower and way more "platformery". Sonic 2 is in-between Sonic 1 and 3. Both in terms of level design and how numbers work lol
     
  18. LordOfSquad

    LordOfSquad

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    Honestly feels like the perfect mix of CD, 2, and 3 level design elements to me.
     
  19. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    I'd disagree with basically all of this. Sonic Mania's level design takes most of its cues from Sonic 2 and Sonic CD and almost none from Sonic 1 and Sonic 3.

    Sonic 3 stages weren't divided into GOTTA GO FAST segments and platforming segments; they were often mixed together, with only really Hydrocity being an exception.

    I'd say Sonic 3 is in-between Sonic 1 and Sonic 2, personally.
     
  20. FlackoWeasel

    FlackoWeasel

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    Some of the blue spheres in the extras are evil lol. They sometimes just lead to the red spheres or the yellow sphere leads to red spheres :D