How did I know it would be darkspinesonic? I wonder what sort of crazy Mania speedruns he'll be showing off in the future? (Knuckles & Knuckles any% for AGDQ 2018 plz)
So after taking my time to complete Mania and play through the stages consecutive times I find myself fairly disappointed with the original zones, boss fights and musics in the game, while heavily enjoying the remixed classic stages and tunes (save for MMZ). I've always felt like the original STH genesis games always existed in this world just within the realm of believable, you had ruins, a massive carnival esque place, a massive chemical plant and oil refinery, etc while always maintaining the ability to be believably surreal. You would see things that might hint towards other humans existing (mostly SLZ where you had the back drop of a city while running on platforms that otherwise wouldn't be found in one) but otherwise those things were kept at arms length or at a greater distance where it was only an after thought. It was also heavily implied that the only individuals that existed in this world was Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy and Robotnik (if you count Sonic the Fighters, you can include those characters as well) but Mania really goes out of its way to step over that line and include a bit too many human world touches than I am comfortable with. For starters lets look at Studiopolis, huge city filled with shops, tv trucks, satellites, weird popcorn machines, some of those gambling roller ball machines, a huge TV studio and later you would see trains with graffiti zooming by in the background. While SZ is a really beautiful zone and more or less fun to play and interact with the mechanics, these strictly human world elements stood out like a sore thumb to me. Why would Robotnik need a massive T.V studio, T.V trucks and shops to sell a (worrying) ammount of T.V's? I understand that this is a fantasy world but it seems a bit out of place when there is only one single established human. Additionally, Press Garden Act 1 really stood out to me as weird, unattractive and bizarre with all those news papers flying by in the background. Act 2 really felt so starkly different in comparison while really being a much better zone and one that felt like an original Sonic stage. Mirage Saloon Act 1 felt fine and was an interesting twist on Sky Chase and the train segment didn't feel too unbelievable but Act 2's bar segments and large guns with hands and massive bottles of seltzer also felt strange and out of place to me as well. The original games (1-3K) never felt the need to cross the line that Mania has and certainly for good reason as it creates a very uncanny clash of themes and environments where things start to feel a bit stretched that a blue, super fast hedgehog would be running around in that area. Titanic Monarch felt boring, clustered and anti-climactic and incredibly disappointing as a final stage when compared to the Death Egg from S3&K.The final Super Sonic battle felt... rushed, incomplete and lack luster. Why is Sonic able to be damaged to the point of losing rings, why is the Stag Beetle Egg Robo even included in the battle, why is cheesing the boss by not flying and just standing on the ground and hitting it from below by jumping even an allowed option? As someone who grew up with his genesis and played a scary amount of Sonic 1,2 and 3&K these new stages, gimmicks and lame battles really disappointed me and feel they negatively impact Mania in a way that they shouldn't have been allowed to. As wonderful of a job that Tee Lopes did with all the tracks, I feel that he really dropped the ball with the mini boss, major boss, final boss, and TMZ tracks. The Boss themes really reminded me of the mess that were Sonic 4's boss tracks where they felt more goofy, playful and chipper than what really should be an exciting, energetic and much more thematic tune for the end of act/stage boss. Considering all the experience Tee Lopes has with making music and remixing Sonic TH tracks it really seems hard to believe that it was his decision to create such disappointing boss tunes. Also, what was the deal with the time zone (?) being pulled out of the ground in Angel Island and then the game suddenly revealing that the entire game (mostly) took place on Little Planet? It's just confusing and ends up looking like a mess when it could've been handled in a better way. As much I don't want to come off as a total original trilogy fanboy, I am finding myself struggling with the justification for why the new content feels lack luster and in many ways out right disappointing. The remixed classic stages, visuals and tracks were absolutely fantastic so why isn't everything else? Am I just asking for too much, being overly critical or it just because its hard for the new content to shine when stacked against such excellent and nostalgic works from the previous games? Who knows, maybe I'm just being overly nostalgic and critical based on my childhood love song for the original genesis STH games. Either way, it was really fantastic to see such a graceful return to 2D and to see it handled as well as it was. To quote someone else from a few pages back, Mania is a gem with some scratches (though some are a bit deeper than should have been allowed, in my opinion).
I'm torn as to how to respond to this cause I don't want to sound rude, but the premise of this post seems really ridiculous when Sonic 2 has a casino modelled after literally Las Vegas and Sonic 3 has a CARNIVAL ON ANGEL ISLAND, a place that is established to have nobody but Knuckles and his tribe on it (IIRC.) Also Mirage Saloon has a gloved cartoony hand, not entirely unlike the hands in Hydrocity that grab Sonic by the head. It's probably meant to be like a gun cause Fang/Nack has a gun. That's....literally it, really. I'm sorry I'm just not sure how to parse this. I guess it's just disagreement. But the old games pretty clearly established people in every way besides spriting them so I don't find the new levels out of place at all. EDIT: I'm dumb, they did actually sprite people. Heiroglyphs in Sandopolis Act 2 have pretty clear Egyptian dudes on em. Welp.
Maybe it's just me then, I know Sonic 2 and 3 had things like that but I suppose it didn't feel as forced as some of the things in Mania. I recently had the same conversation with my brother and he seems to hold the same opinion as you do so I'm probably just looking at things weirdly.
I dunno, I liked both Eggman boss themes and love how the Mean Bean Machine remix even starts similarly to Ruby Delusions. And a gloved cartoony hand fits into a game about a cartoony blue hedgehog y'know. :P
As weird as it may sound to those who have already played Mania and love it, I fear I might feel like Tidbit when I play the game, I had that fear already when they started showing the main bulk of the pre-release stuff, and some things people have commented favored this fear, such as the modern-style plot it has to explain all those level transitions (you know, mediocre and out of the blue). I hope I'll be thinking differently next week but I'm usually very critical about if fan games stick with classics standards, and this time the same may happen with the only new official classic game: For the record, I was very disappointed with Sonic Time Twisted with many things, but mainly with its explicit plot and scenes, and the "crossover" with Marvel, totally out of place in a Sonic game..
This game has no weird crossover or anything explicitly out of place from the Classic Sonic series IMO, ESPECIALLY if you count side-stories like comic stuff and/or the Sonic cartoon and what have you. I'm not sure where this sentiment comes from, it seems really strange and out of nowhere. If the plot in this game was modern styled people would probably have pointed it out. I think the plot could actually use work, mostly in its delivery, cause while I got some of it I didn't get all of it till I read the stuff in this thread and put it together. It's a lot less clear than S3K if that's what you're wondering. I think if stuff was starkly out of place there'd be a much larger bulk of people complaining. This is a fanbase with some of the most dedicated and attentive people, and about 99% of them seem to think this game fits right in, so I think you'll be as pleasantly surprised as I was.
Wow I....didn't actually know about that! Holy cow that's neat! Another bit of trivia to add to my bag I guess. But yeah my point still stands, I think everyone can suspend their disbelief of SOnic being in a Western film trope area when he's already been to the Vegas Strip (explicitly.)
There were quite a few cityscape zones in the classics. Spring Yard, Star Light, Stardust Speedway, Casino Night, Carnival Night. The Floating Island is the only 'uninhabited' one, the others don't have even the implication of that. The technology in Little Planet's Good Future must've come from somewhere, for instance. I do get what you're saying about the 'surreal' nature of classic Sonic (especially for the levels in Sonic CD) but the new zones in Mania fit in perfectly alongside them. The one thing I did notice in Mania is a massive increase in Eggman's narcissism, with his logo and appearance plastered absolutely everywhere. Is this a bad thing? I don't think so. I would like some more 'natural' levels in the next game though. (edit: To clarify, Mania just has a lot of 'artificial' levels - Chemical Plant, Studiopolis, Flying Battery, Stardust Speedway, Oil Ocean, Metallic Madness and Titanic Monarch are all quite 'metallic'. Press Garden 1, Hydrocity and parts of Lava Reef are also sentient-made I suppose, but they feel both more unique and more natural.) On one hand, personal taste and all that. But on the other hand - you're a madman, the boss themes are all fantastic and menacing. The Sonic 3 midboss theme is far more goofy and playful than anything in Mania. The only zones to take place on Little Planet were Stardust Speedway, Metallic Madness and Titanic Monarch. (edit: The stone that buried itself on Angel Island is the Phantom Ruby. Nothing to do with the Time Stones.)
I certainly don't agree that the classic Sonic leaves implicit, in any sense whatsoever, that Sonic and the other characters are the "only beings" in the world. Quite the contrary, for me the game at all times makes clear that there is a much much larger world around, and the presence of humans (or at least similar humanoids) appears at various times during the games. It's almost strange that they don't appear, but it's something that is part of the atmosphere of the game itself. But I really agree that some elements of the game end up going too far for the game's "setting". The hands on Hydrocity Zone already seemed to be at the extreme point in there, tangentiating the line between the plausible and the cartoon, but Sonic Mania goes further with its giant objects like syringes and pistols. This really feels like something "fangame-y", which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it certainly brings a different feel to it, it takes Sonic's world to a new direction. And obviously, whenever this occurs in a beloved series, we will have polarizing reactions. Some people care - some like it, some don't, and others don't even notice any difference. I think Mania, within the proposition of what the game tried to be, is really a great game. I have my criticisms about it for sure: the lack of transition in some levels, lack of sprites for Super Sonic at certain times, lack of foreground adjustments on certain levels (FBZ) that I felt that should have been done, etc. But I also have criticisms to the original games, no game is perfect. And among all the Sonic games released in years, Mania is undoubtedly the only one I really feel like it's part of the original series, reaching the same height. What I hope is that Mania is just the first project, and that in the future, we get a new game in the same style made only with original levels, a new story (no more Green Hill please) and even, perhaps, raising the bar on the art even more, bringing a game that was something like "a 2D Sonic game made for Saturn".
I beat the game as Sonic and Tails, and I loved every moment of it. Everything had love poured into it from the level art, boss fights and music. I've triple dipped in it and will quadruple dip in it. Stealth, Taxman, you done good. Take a victory lap. I hope you guys receive more creative freedom make another Sonic game with all new levels and someday receive the okay to go through with a definitive version of Sonic 3 for iOS and a collection of all the remakes for consoles and PC.
To echo some of the comments on this topic, I actually feel that the level placements from everything that I have seen so far, are not out of place, IMO. As others have stated we have had strange things in the previous games such as cityscapes and other things, but to me, it fits in with the surreal aspect of the sonic mythos. That being said, as someone who has grown up with the first three games, I can only hope that Mania 2, goes a little further in that weird direction when it comes to the stages. Levels like Press Garden and my new favorite Studiopolis, feel like they belong in the Sonic universe. Not trying to dispute the fact that different people have different tastes, but to me, I don't find it to be a problem, and I hope that Mania 2 gives us more levels like Press Garden and Studiopolis.
Sonic's world also has highways that do loop-de-loops. At some point you have to let suspension of disbelief kick in.
New to high level Puyo Puyo play it seems. That's a pretty fundamental combo pattern he is using. I refuse!
I knew his comments were going to be taken to that extreme. Sonic Mania's surrealism was more Looney Toons than what the original trilogy presented. That's what he's getting at. It's a different take that makes even less semantic sense than the games before Mania, but that doesn't automatically mean "worse".
I always viewed the whole thing as Robotnik meddling in everything. He seems about the sort of guy to go for a Wild West themed theme park. How else did we end up with Casino Night or Carnival Night? Or a fair chunk of Chaotix? Dude has his eggs set on theme parks!
I have had a great time so far but have not finished it yet. I bought it for PS4. I agree with some people though - I hope if a sequel is ever made, it ends up having all brand new zones. I gave it 5 stars on PSN to promote Sega continuing to support these kinds of games.
The guys only had 4 original stages to show examples of their talents. I'm glad they went the creative route and didn't just do a typical ruins level etc. When we get a full original classic style game, they can do that.
I'm in love with Mania and it has easily become one of my favourite Sonic games. I actually really enjoyed the re-imagined levels and if a sequel is on the cards, would love some original levels and some re-imagined levels included too (or better yet, 2 separate games, one with original levels, one with re-imagined levels). Also, I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet - and I might be barking up the wrong tree here - but the HBH that rides the Motobug, is the inclusion of the Motobug just for lolz or is it a subtle nod to Polygon Jim? I've just been watching a mania vid on YT and noticed that some of the sprites of the Motobug bear striking resemblance to Jim's from Motobug in Sonic 1.
