Sonic Forces Thread

I can imagine having to manage your boost in a more speedrunning focused Sonic game like Generations or Unleashed could make things more interesting. Would mean that you'd have to factor in ways to get boost when trying to get a good time on a level.

 

I would be surprised if it doesn't already happen.

 

Look, I'm playing through Nier Automata right now, and that game easily has five or six different playstyles (and also switches from 3D to 2D on the fly) along with multiple playable characters. If you do it right multiple playstyles in the same game can be a wonderful thing.

The problem with Sonic is that the franchise's attempts to incorporate different styles has never really worked out. The closest it has come to pulling it off is Sonic Generations with the classic and modern styles, which they are resorting to again in Forces.

If the other playstyles could achieve more than mediocrity they would not be an issue for Sonic and would mitigate the double-edged sword effect that the Boost gameplay has had.

 

Except the issue isn't really that the other gameplay styles are bad, but that there's an inherent lack of focus when they attempt multiple different types of characters. Games like Nier sculpt scenarios where certain types of shifts in gameplay and perspective are justified, and even if they don't follow the rules established in the main gameplay, they're short and inoffensive enough to let pass. Meanwhile, the Sonic games basically just come up with two different ideas and never give them enough focus to flesh them out. And since the rules and elements the player deals with are different they never feel like two sides of a similar coin. Basically if you don't enjoy a certain type of gameplay, it becomes a roadblock you have to get around. Instead of finding a single solid game style, then fleshing it out to apply to a wealth of different scenarios, they keep relying on supplementary stuff to fill in the gaps. Even if Classic Sonic is better than the other stuff they've thrown at us, it's still half baked and doesn't really compliment the boost gameplay at all. It'd be one thing if they used these alternate gameplay styles as a means of experimental with new ideas, but they always come off more as filler than anything else.

 

Now that you mention it, Sonic Team has kinda handled having different gameplay styles like NieR Automata already with Sonic Colours.

 

Here, since everyone's fighting, I thought I'd chip in with what I don't like about Modern Sonic games:

1. Rings are WORTHLESS.

In Sonic Generations, there is no shortage of rings, no matter where you go. At no point in the game are you ever at risk of taking enough damage to die, unless you've played this game for the first time ever. Ring Energy does not deplete enough for it to be a fuel source you really have to focus on grabbing. Sonic somehow gained a weak version of the Electric Shield's magnetism, and it's not needed at all, because Sonic's not so hard to control that he can't just get them. This really just makes them about as meaningless as tits on a brick. Not only that, but Sonic can regain his OWN ring energy in a drift! Worse yet, they're not even a good shop currency! You can accidentally get enough rings to buy everything you want.

2. Closed level design.

Now I will say that when it comes to the corridor running stuff, I really can't say that I mind segments like it, but it doesn't make a game in itself. Both Unleashed and Generations got this really wrong. I want openness. I want levels where turning matters, I want levels that are essentially more refined versions of the Chao Hunting Stages in Shamar. Running down a tube is great for promo material, but you can't make that the game. I don't need an open world, but I want some sparseness if this game's going to be a linear trail to the Goal Ring. Think 3D WorldRunner, or Space Harrier, or those rare moments of City Escape where you could explore the Park. That was perfectly designed for this playstyle.

3. Enemies are props and there is no merit to killing them.

Enemies in Sonic games have never been much more than a moving obstacle, but in Generations and Unleashed, they've been downgraded to interactive scenery. Killing them with boost is unsatisfying and doesn't make sense. I don't care if Sonic's fucking Ki Aura is that powerful, it still doesn't feel good. It's cheap. Sonic has too many defenses for his defenses.

4. Automation.

Fuck Automation, there's no justifying it. The end. If you want me to go in the right direction, send an arrow my fucking way, and even put that on a toggleable option.

5. They never got a control system down that worked fluidly at all speeds.

This one I don't really think needs an explanation. There's no reason why going from natural walk-to-run should feel much different when boosting. Making the turning circle bigger makes sense, but it's absolutely ridiculous the way it is. I know for a fact that it can be done. If some rando loser like me can do it, then Sonic Team has no excuse.

6. These problems together turn Sonic into a glorified roller coaster simulator.

I don't expect Sonic games to be hard, but when these games are nearly playing themselves, it's time to revisit why they are supposed to be fun, and inject that into the gameplay. No going back to the roots or any other self-congratulatory autofellatio, I just want to see something that works and is fun in a lasting way.

Bonus: The Chaos Emeralds should be fun to gather in special stages, not the literal purpose of the story, out of the character's reach, like every fucking other time. This is the one and only thing that Heroes did right. Utilizing the character's skill to get the macguffin is the least you could do. Make getting the things that reduce the challenge, a challenge.

 

While I don't think the boost formula is flawless and its utilization makes Sonic Team lazy and endulge in bad habits, I don't think it's inherently bad.

The shift in design paradigm that would happen by simply changning how the boost functions from how it does from the Rush method (instanteous fast tank) to the Sonic Advance 2 method (reward for maintaining momentum for a prolongued period of time and FURTHER rewarding the player for holding onto rings for shorter amount of time to achieve boost) would absolutely improve how the game and design functions.

 

^I believe that would take even more time than their current workflow. They'd have to design thousands of little pieces and spend ages programming exactly how everything can fit together and at what frequency, so that nothing looks out of place or goes against their aesthetic. It definitely wouldn't happen in the foreground, as that all has to be even more meticulously designed to fit around the collision and look appealing. It's feasible with background pieces in the sense that they could create large rocks and let them randomise in an area, but I think that's the furthest extent they'd go to.
For reference, look at the engine the recent Rayman games have been using. While all the levels are designed by 'drawing' out the terrain and having it automatically blend between hand painted segments, I assume the engine took absolutely ages to develop and the pieces of the level even longer - and that's only in 2D. Add another dimension in and you're in for a ride.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzOK-567A3U

I'm just gonna leave this here. Hold X to win!



And then somehow people can say "It's not perfect, but".

No. It's not even a formula. There's literally a handful of places that it's not "hold boost to win".


Fuck status quo. I'm gonna come out and say it: Boost is not a formula. It's watching a video that you intervene with. It's shallow, it's boring, and it loses the novelty after a few minutes. If Sonic is going to be a 2.5D "platformer", then that would make it pretty lame.

 

*posts video of Green Hill Act 1 from Sonic 1*

Hold right to win! There's only a few places where you have to do something else, so classic Sonic is inherently flawed. It's not even a formula!

--

This was supposed to be a topic about Sonic Forces and despite it being pointed out that everyone's steered wildly off-course, the subject remains a widespread circlejerk. I don't feel like I should have to state that "you just boost to win" is a childish and oversimplified assessment of a gameplay formula you don't like, and basically any gameplay formula can be similarly simplified. Different people seem to have different ideas of what the classic Sonic formula boiled down to, and those that got something different from me out of it clearly don't seem to like how the gameplay has evolved. Maybe it's because (and this might sound familiar) I used to play Mario and speedrun the levels, I always enjoyed the series for how runs through the stages could be perfected with good timing and reflexes. To me, the rollercoaster nature of (the good part of) Unleashed, Colours, and Generations captured that perfectly, but I can see how others don't feel the same. As someone who spent hundreds of hours porting and testing stages, though, I feel like I must be seeing a layer of complexity those people aren't. I learned about the fragile balance of kinetic movement in level design and how much of a juggling act it is to keep a player in an enjoyable comfort zone. But after nearly killing myself to bring what I saw to other people, I've been following this thread for weeks only to see my effort trashed by manner of association. That's an emotional argument to be sure, but I truly don't understand the arrogance I see going on here.

And you know what, I guess I should come to expect it now. I too wanted Sonic Forces to be good, but those hopes are draining out of me with every new piece of footage. So if I'm not enjoying the games and don't feel comfortable with the fanbase, I dunno what I'm still doing here. I logged out a while ago the same time I closed some of my social media accounts and told myself I wouldn't keep posting no matter how much these arguments frustrated me, but I guess I hit my limit. I truly feel like the franchise I used to love is fractured and messy because the fans representing it are fractured and messy. I feel like all I see anymore scrolling through topics is stuff about how Flying Battery's art assets don't look good enough (even though the problem areas are from the original and possibly so by SEGA's mandate) or how boost was never good despite it being a formula well-received enough to be in at least six games now. Honestly if I didn't know any better, I'd say no one here really likes Sonic that much; either that or everyone's just projecting their perfect ideal version of the franchise onto each other (or both). I really don't think most of you guys are going to see what you want out of this franchise, and neither am I, which is why I think I'm going to be moving onto other things at this point. Now let's hope I maintain that restraint this time.

P.S. please don't tell me you look at the loops and corkscrews and tunnels in the classic series and don't think that's automation, guys. seriously that argument is really frustrating

 

Only the tunnels/tubes are automation. You can slow down at the corkscrews if you want to drop to the route below (also seen in Generations, I think?) and you can use the loops to build even more speed if you time your jumps correctly.

 

I quite enjoyed reading this discussion actually, even if it has gone completely sideways. I like to see people passionate about things, rather than just emotionless zombies that think there's no such thing as a bad idea.

When paying for a product (or anything for that matter), you are more likely to complain if something isn't quite right, as you expect a certain level of quality for you money.

I'm sure people have good things to say about the Sonic franchise (it's in a much better position than say, 10 years ago) but it's never really expressed on t' internet.

I do want to say though, and this is probably going to be unpopular with a few of you (and you'll never change my mind on it no matter how arrogant that sounds)... but, some opinions and creative ideas are just plain bad. Some people just have better ideas than others, and that's just the way it is.

Think of all the classic movies/video games/albums that have ever been made and you'll find all (if not most) where convinced by someone with a very strong idea of what they wanted out of it. They didn't go round asking for everyone's opinion, and then change the product to keep everyone happy. This is why some indie developed games and bedroom produced albums are just so damn good. They don't listen to anyone but themselves whilst making their art, and maintain a strong artistic vision because of it.

From a creative perspective If you have a strong enough idea for your product/art/music/game/whatever - then you rarely need the opinions of others during creation/development. If you try to understand and pander to everyone's viewpoint/opinion it can and will dilute the project, and that thing you had to begin that was so unique and special will be diminished. You end up with design by committee.

This I feel to some large degree is what has happened with the franchise. A large majority of boost Sonic gameplay is just plain bad. I'm sure there was an excellent core idea at some point, but it just got diluted along the way.

 

^ Couldn't have said it better. This has little to do with how much we like Sonic or appreciate Sonic Team's hard work. If we didn't like Sonic we wouldn't have such passionate discussions like these. Yeah people can take it too far, but that doesn't mean everyone is attempting to look superior or make others feel stupid. Many people who have thrashed the boost gameplay, myself included, have actually stated that they find it quite fun. We understand and accept the complexities buried within their design. But that doesn't mean that it's the best course of action for the series, regardless of reception. It also doesn't mean we should shut our mouths and live with it just because it's good enough. The whole purpose of these forums is to discuss, debate, and at times even argue with each other over topics revolving around Sonic. Why? Cause we like the character, the concept, and the potential the series has. We don't think it's tapping into it's full potential, because what used to be a game centered around player control and game fluidity, now has to create the illusion of those elements. And like you said S0L, it turns into a strict balancing act of putting all of the level elements together just to keep the game interesting, which means more time taken up, which means less content, which means less value in the product. If Sonic Team can find a way to make a boost game that can last more than 5 to 6 hours, then they might have something. If they can make a boost game where you're actually in control. Manipulate the camera, and not have to worry about automation forcing your hand, then they might have something. If they can make a boost game that doesn't rely on supplementary gameplay to artificially lengthen it, then they might have something. This was their chance to show us that they could do that, but all they've showed us was that they could make the game look prettier. Maybe it's too soon to start building assumptions, but it's their fault for showing it to us in the first place.

 

Interesting points.

But actually........ the boost game play is good.

 

This just goes to show what I've felt all along: The problem with boost formula isn't the formula. It's the level design. The mechanics, all they really need is some tweaks. Make boosting way more expensive, ditch the automation, make the controls more similar between boosting and non-boosting (read: better controls for both), and maybe increase Sonic's top speed without boost. But change the level design, and you've essentially changed the whole game. I mean, try to play Planet Wisp (Generations) like this, and you're going to die a lot.

The problem with Forces, as I see it, is not that they've stuck to the boost style. It's that what they've shown so far (which, remember is all first level, usually the easiest, is far too linear and automated. Linear and automated are by far the two biggest problems, but they are by no means mandated by the engine.

 

Yes. In fact I recall saying I thought it was fun.