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Sonic Mania (Switch, PS4, Xbox One, PC...Netflix?)

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TimmiT, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Whatever the issue is, It's obviously not worth Sega shelling out the inevitable $$$$ that the Jackson Estate would surely demand.

    Fantastic opportunity for the likes of Tee Lopes to step in and do something original.
     
  2. Aquova

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    It's even more complicated than that it seems. After doing some quick research, it seems Sony now owns a majority of Jackson's music company, although his estate still holds a stake in the group that owns the master recordings. I don't know if Sega has pursued licensing the songs, but I imagine it's a legal mess they don't want to bother with. I think the fact we haven't seen Ice Cap Zone's theme supports this, as the song (probably) isn't owned by the Jackson estate, but instead by Fervor Records, this indie record label that seems to own The Jetzon's music.

    All in all, while it would be nice to hear the Sonic 3 tracks again, Tee Lopes can clearly make tracks just as good or better.
     
  3. Laura

    Laura

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    Well surely Stealth and Taxman will find out eventually, because surely SEGA will tell them 'you can't use so and so tracks from Sonic 3, so you can't remake those levels'. Actually, that raises an interesting question in I wonder if Team Mania chose the remade levels or were told which levels to remix. I guess if Team Mania were told to remake the levels that have never had music changes and have frequently been remade (Angel Island), then we will never know for sure how much basis there is for this Sonic 3 conspiracy theory :v:

    I still think the whole thing is pretty baseless to be honest, and I think it's especially silly to point to the PC collection as definitive proof when who knows what's happened in the last 20 years :v:
     
  4. HEDGESMFG

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    I've been doing a lot of research on the ever so odd topic of music rights copyright/trademark infringement, and the legal gray zone that exists between companies who allow infringement vs those who stomp it out quickly and effectively.

    I believe there is a reason we are being given the silent treatment regarding the Sonic 3 issue, and the matter is simple... Sega is legally bound to be silent about the issue, else they risk opening themselves up to a multitude of potential costly lawsuits between themselves and the Jackson estate.

    Why? I think they were supposed to either drop or change the original compositions, but chose to use them anyway. Perhaps without paying the original rights-holders all of the intended fees. Or they had a backdoor deal of sorts that allowed them to keep using the music so long as they did not do certain things, like remix/remaster/re-release it in a modified form. We'll likely never know the exact details because they likely legally cannot discuss it 'and' protect themselves.

    This is actually not an uncommon issue with japanese media. To be honest, music plagiarism/infringement in the 80s/90s in japan was a very common issue. A popular Dragonball game composer whom later went on to compose the entire soundtrack for DBZ Kai was eventually ousted for 'years' of blatant plagiarism of many popular songs. As a result his entire soundtrack was dropped and entirely replaced from all new re-airings of the show and new re-releases. Earthbound was held back for years due to some pretty blatant infringement issues, and several details were changed in the original 90s release because of parody infringement fears. Later-rereleases also may have had issues because of this. An 80s Gundam TV series has never legally had its theme songs released in the US and never will because the show's original openings and endings were a remix of 3 of American composer Neil Sedaka's songs (done with permission, mind you). Despite this being done with permission for the Japanese release, it is likely whatever agreement they signed only allowed the songs to be used 'inside' japan and using them literally anywhere else would open up all sorts of new licensing fees and even potential lawsuits. In both the US DVD and Blu Ray releases, every incident of the songs as both background music and opening/ending music is replaced with other songs from the show's OST.

    In short, the Japanese often just sort of snubbed music rights or came to limited licensing agreements in the 80s/90s because they could, and those rights change the second they either...

    a. Acknowledge the existence of the infringing element.
    or
    b. Release the infringing element domestically.

    This is why you will also see some companies either ignore fan infringing elements, or stamp them out quickly the moment they are forced to acknowledge their existence. Discussing these things publicly, or even pretending to have knowledge of them, either forces the company to act to defend themselves, or defend their rights.

    In short, copyright with games/anime/tv shows can be weird and messy things. Much, much more-so when popular published music is involved. That almost always creates major problems.
     
  5. BlackFive

    BlackFive

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    Adding further credence to this would be Sega's reluctance towards revealing individual music credits for the S3K tracks that they do own the rights to. Jun Senoue's not allowed to discuss what he did for the game, and any Sonic 3&K music is given a generic "SEGA" credit when released as part of an album. My guess would be that, if Sega start attributing the Sega/Cube music- and only the Sega/Cube music- to individual musicians, it would no doubt draw further attention to the tracks coordinated by Jackson.

    Though I've never quite gotten why Knuckles Chaotix music also gets lumbered with the "SEGA" credit. I'm pretty sure there's no legal issues regarding that game's soundtrack, so unless Sega themselves don't know who composed what, I can't think of an educated guess.
     
  6. Aquova

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    Not to mention that Sega would have to actually admit that Jackson worked on Sonic 3, which is something they've been very reluctant to do. Bringing up the fact that he worked on the game would also bring up questions of why he left, which I think they want to avoid.
     
  7. big smile

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    I'd imagine Sega's contract with Jackson probably wasn't worded that well. And it probably didn't take into account platforms like PC and mobile (especially as at the time Sega was a single platform developer).
    That might explain why we can have the original Sonic 3 music on Saturn and emulation but not in a PC port.

    The remixed Ice Cap, however, is harder to explain.


    Iizuka was actually asked about it in that Udon History of Sonic book, but he dismissed Jackson's involvement as a rumour.
     
  8. Sun

    Sun

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    MJ's involvement was mentioned in Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection (I think it was something like "he was going to do the music originally), but that might have just been thrown in by Backbone after they read about the MJ/S3 stuff.

    I do find it interesting that Lego Dimensions features both Carnival Night and Ice Cap, a bit with similar sounding but completely different tunes. Shows that the zones themselves aren't hard blacklisted.

    Those three zones are the only really troubling parts, as Knuckles Theme/Credits/Boss are "removed" in S3K, and the Competition Menu music could just be replaced by the Save file select one.
     
  9. redhotsonic

    redhotsonic

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    Why does Amazon.com say for the PS4 version April 25th as well as May 31st? I knew about May 31st being a placeholder for months, but Apr 25th came out from nowhere? Or am I blind? (I cba to read back 212 pages to see if this has been mentioned already).
     
  10. Beltway

    Beltway

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    Virtually all of the Sonic levels featured in Lego Dimensions have original melody compositions with somewhat similar instrumentation and cues to the original track; Green Hill is the only composition that actually resembles the original track. It may mean the zones aren't hard blacklists as you said, but I don't think it means anything significant regarding the music.

    Moving on from music from the Sonic 3 half of the game, I personally am more puzzled with the music concerning Sonic & Knuckles' half of the game. Mushroom Hill, Flying Battery, Death Egg, and The Doomsday have been reused, while Sandopolis, Lava Reef, and Hidden Palace have not.

    There is a soundtrack release of Sonic & Knuckles' music that are re-synchronized music tracks...but it's also the only official soundtrack release the game ever got in any format.

    Howard Drossin is credited as the sole composer for the Sonic & Knuckles half of the game's music, but in the SageXPO interview, he said he only did a handful of tracks for S3&K as a whole, with most of them going into the Sonic & Knuckles half; implying there were still a few tracks in Sonic & Knuckles he wasn't responsible for (though he says that some of the tracks in Sonic & Knuckles "were from Japanese composers", so they may have been from Sonic Team's composers, rather than MJ and his crew).

    And save for a few cues and different looping errors on some tracks, the majority of Sonic & Knuckles' music already existed in the Sonic 3 half of the game in the sound test.
     
  11. Sid Starkiller

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    That's good news for me. Icecap is clearly popular, but sometimes I feel like the only person in the world who loves Carnival Night.
     
  12. Flygon

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    I liked Carnival Night Zone, but I do think the PC music is much better than the Mega Drive version's.

    Of course, it's all subjective, but for the two non-Ice Cap Zones, there are very very good replacement tunes available.
     
  13. BlackFive

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    I think it was confirmed that Howard's only contributions to Sonic & Knuckles were the title screen and Knuckles' theme. Though the fact that he's credited as the only entry under "Music Composers" in S&K alone would imply that the American team had nothing to do with S&K's soundtrack, especially considering their credits were reinstated in Sonic 3 & Knuckles. (Everyone else, of course, was credited under either "Sega Sound Team" or "Sound Special Thanks".)

    As for Hidden Palace, we know that it's the work of one Masayuki Nagao, who worked at Sega at the time. However, it could be that the track is considered a derivative of Lava Reef, rather than its own thing entirely.

    It's more than possible that the lack of Sandopolis and Lava Reef remixes doesn't mean anything, but I've always wondered about the various people and organisations credited in the game's "Sound Special Thanks" section. We know that Sega can use the music courtesy of Cube Corp (Marble Garden), but then there's Opus Corp, Mayumi Nina Sakazaki and Masanori Nakayama, and I'm not sure what these people were responsible for (if they even composed or arranged anything for the game at all).

    Based off rule of elimination and the credits on the 10th Anniversary CD, I'm inclined to believe that both Angel Island and Sky Sanctuary were the work of one or more of the companies/people present on the "Sound Special thanks" list.
     
  14. Carnival night is amazing! The glass smashing, the super cool carnival bass synth, always amazed me what they could squeeze out of that FM sound chip. As for Ice Cap, I can take it or leave it :)

    EDIT: just to add, going off S3&K OST vids on YouTube, I think Jackson gets far too much credit compared to the other amazing musicians who contributed much more to the soundtrack.
     
  15. VectorCNC

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    As far as Casino tropes go, I suppose Carnival Night would be the best.

    However, I think Ice Cap has the most potential for a revival. While the original Ice Cap was a little too simplistic IMO, it had a lot going for it which would make for an amazing remake a la Mania. The snowboard gimmick was useless, but cool, and longtime fans would really appreciate a return, especially if it can become a more playable aspect of the zone. It would also work well for zone transitions, or holy smokes imagine Sonic on a snowboard during a boss battle!!!

    The other gimmicks in the zone worked well too. I would very much like to see the original music included though, if possible. Then, as stated many pages ago, the Mania revisions could be incredible. I think the frozen over remains of the Death Egg would be jaw dropping. You could even have little flickies still frozen in robotisizer tubes, that Sonic can smash open and release. You could have Sonic actually snowboarding through the remains of the crash crater. You could have that automaton mech with the eye and spinning balls, still functioning in the heart of the rubble, it could blow and cause an avalanche… It makes my heart race just thinking of how awesome an Ice Cap revival could be… It has so much potential!
     
  16. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    They can (and probably will) make a remix of the song that's recognizeable enough, if needed.

    People will go "Hey I like it better than the original!" and the original music will be effectively retconned. =P
     
  17. Beltway

    Beltway

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    One thing that would be kinda neat IMO, if Carnival Night/Ice Cap/Launch Base are able to get remade, is if they can somehow mix the original tracks and the PC remade tracks together in some way. One possible attempt I would be partial to myself is if the tracks for melodies of the PC version were used...but they heavily borrow the instrumentation of the Genesis songs, and contain several cues from the Genesis melodies within them.

    e: (As for which versions of the tracks I prefer over others; my preference goes as PC Carnival Night, Genesis Ice Cap, and PC Launch Base barely beating Genesis Launch Base. In all three cases, I feel the main dealbreaker is that the "inferior" tracks feeling a bit empty in instrumentation and the act variants sounding too similar compared to the "superior" versions. I generally like all of them though).
     
  18. VectorCNC

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    Ice Cap stands a very good chance of being chosen, if for no other reason than it being the only snow themed zone in the entire classic series. Also, I think I recall a comment about how Ice Cap ranked high in popularity when they did the company vote for Generations zone inclusion.
     
  19. Mastered Realm

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    Don't forget they can always pick Diamond Dust, Robotnik Winter or GHz can be the only retro level.
     
  20. Sparks

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    Pretty sure any game that isn't Sonic 1, 2, 3K or CD is out of the question.