Sonic Social Media Shenanigans (This totally just happened...)

Sonic is literally an American 90's kid, born from good old post-WWII coin-op manufacturers.

SEGA would've likely remained an American company had the US not outlawed slot machines in the 50's, forcing the founders to move their company operations to Japan.

 

I wonder how much there is to this? Sonic Team has always been incredibly tone deaf IMO, which I assumed was primarily the result of group-think. Now you could argue that with globalization and modern communications physical locations are no longer a barrier, but language could still be a major obstacle. I personally have no idea what goes on with Japanese Sonic fan sites, if there even are any? Perhaps the Japanese are equally as blind to what is occurring on the English side.

It could be argued that we at Sonic Retro are in fact the ones who are "isolated", except that the media and sales figures appear to validate our opinions.

Has a representative of Sega ever EVER stepped out to explain why they don't listen to their most ardent fans. I get that the fan base is fractured, and we don't speak with a entirely unified voice, but nonetheless a coherent message does emerge. Again, we can't merely be in an echo chamber due to popular sentiment.

Finally, after 2 decades, when Sega does listen to the fans, a la Sonic Mania, they get what is probably the best reception they've had in a long time. On what is probably a significantly smaller budget, and rapid development time. How many of us have been asking for exactly this for 2 decades and yet Sega never got the fucking clue, never even responded to it. Instead we got one new gimmick, new reboot, new character, after the next, while nothing stuck.

One of the most exciting things about Mania is that it is validation for those of us who have been turning blue in the face for 2 decades.

Sega, Sonic Team, if anyone is listening to this at all, here is your next step after Mania... Create another 2D Sonic game, this time all new zones. NO GREEN HILL REHASH! Keep the exact same aesthetic, badniks, music, etc. only make one change... Utilize HD graphics in the same manner as Sonic 2 HD. This will break 2D Sonic out of the perceived retro-fanboy-megaman9 image. I'm not saying that is a fair perception at all, its NOT, I'm just saying that it prevents "Classic Sonic" from reaching its full potential, with its own definable vector. A lot of people will look at a pixelated game and brush it off as not for them, or as a "phone/tablet game", not a serious blockbuster game that utilizes their expensive console.

Maybe this belong in the Mania thread...

 

Personally, judging from some of the comments about "WHERE IS SA3" in response to Mania, or younger fans being used to and expecting more 3D Sonic, even an HD sidescroller might not be enough to sway them. I dunno, how much did Sonic 4 bridge the gap, if at all?

 

Sonic 4 did the opposite--it widened the gap, and regarding classic fans, burned the bridge down (at least until Mania came to hopefully restore it). And that's partially where the irony comes from--Sonic 4 as a whole can be described as the absolute apex of 2D Sonic having been refocused away from what the classic games set, to be more homogeneous with the changes 3D Sonic had gone through over the years. Gameplay entirely dependent on the Homing Attack. Scripting/automation out the wazoo. Automatic springs and boosters. Bottomless pits. And in the case of Episode II, it took it even further with linear level design, gimmicky mechanics tacked onto the existing gameplay, warning signs and tutorials, and a move that is a boost mechanic in all but name (even though the boost mechanic as we know it originated from Rush). And while one can chalk this up to anecdotal evidence, a fair amount of people I've come across that like Sonic 4 actually don't care for, or outright dislike, the classic games as it is.

Yet when classic fans widely rejected Episode II, 3D fans didn't come in to pick up the slack in sales, and the entire Sonic 4 saga paid the price for it. Same case could even be made with the Rush titles, which was when resemblance to the classic games was dropped outright--the first game sold decently, but barely a fraction of those who bought it bothered with the sequel, and there hasn't been any original handheld titles since (Boom tie-ins notwithstanding). Never mind the fact that people are now complaining about the presence of 2D gameplay in recent games as it is (granted, they have a bit of a point as some of the recent games arguably have more 2D levels than 3D levels, but the point still stands).

Appealing to fans of the 3D games (in what I presume is an attempt to try and "please everyone") is the last thing 2D Sonic should be doing; if anything, I'd argue they should be doing the complete opposite scenario. Mania should be the starting point of restoring the original Genesis gameplay back into 2D Sonic proper and shifting away from the influence of the 3D titles.

...

Right, Sonic Social Media thread. I guess in regards to the concern that its jokey persona isn't helping the series look professional (that could also backfire if Sonic 2017 fails to impress), I guess the handles could throw in some more variety in what it posts. In particular, I was thinking about having more "highlight" moments that examine at the unironically better / positive aspects of the series. The remarks about fangames is actually one example of this I'd point to, in the sense of showcasing some of the awesome stuff that the community has done.

 

If there is a Mania 2, I don't want HD graphics, save that for another set of sonic games. The graphics of Mania thus far shows the full potential of the retro style being done with the newer technology we have and I love it! I haven't been this impressed since SF3 3rd Strike in terms of sprite animation I want to see more of this and if re-using some assets (namely the characters maybe enemies as well) means getting more Mania goodness I'm all for it!

 

I too think the game looks great, and I personally also enjoy the pixelated graphics, however your statement that the graphics of mania show the full potential of retro graphics done with the newer technology we have is somewhat nebulous, as they are based on Sega Saturn capabilities, which again is nearly 2 decades old. I think the play style has already perfectly emulated the retro style, but to continue forward with pixellated graphics will only limit the audience and keep "Classic" Sonic as a niche series primarily purchased by a niche audience. I want Classic Sonic to stand alongside modern Sonic in parallel. Sonuc 2 HD was able to show that you can maintain the classic aesthetic while still bringing the game up to modern graphic standards. They simply cannot reach as large of an audience if the new content still comes in an outdated presentation. The pixel look is fine for people like you and me, most people will not want to pay top dollar for a game that looks like it's 20 years old. If we want Classic Sonic to be more than a throwback series it needs to sell enough that Sega go full force behind it. That means a physical game on the shelf, that means a $60 price, and it means reaching a mainstream audience. Don't get me wrong, I have very little faith that Sega can even achieve the same look as Sonic 2 HD, maybe I'm giving them too much credit. I just think it's necessary to secure the growth of the Classic Sonic series.

 

https://twitter.com/sonic_hedgehog/status/800066102432628736

 

I would love to work there.

 

The tumblr tag said "if only we could get little planet out of the shell of the death egg."

Lol Sonic 4

 

PagodaWest are the ones who created the Sonic 2 HD look. So I doubt it would be too difficult for them to achieve the same look if they wanted to. I'd love to see an original game in that style myself.

 

I'm aware of this, and I think Major Magnet is a case in point of what this could look like. But there is no guarantee Sega will use them indefinitely, or not fuck it up somehow as per usual. For example, they could keep Tax and Stealth, then decide to do the graphic work in-house, and in an attempt to modernise the graphics and cut costs they use all 3D model assets which lack the classic aesthetic. This is exactly what Sega would do...

 

When I say retro I'm referring to both the graphics and play style. Sonic Mania is the complete package, it feels like a game lost in time and that's part of it's charm. To replicate that look and feel without the limitations, HD graphics imho would take away from this.

But that's just it, how many would pay full price for a 2d game with a 2d art style in general? If the reactions I've seen indicate anything the mainstream audience want 3d sonic. Don't get me wrong S2HD artstyle was nice but imo it lacks the charm of pixelated graphics. I'm not sure the effort is worth the trouble, It's like if a new Metal Slug or River City Ransom (RCR Underground is another excellent example of what Mania will accomplish) comes out and suddenly the graphics are hand drawn, it may look nice but it's not going to hit that note with fans looking for a sequel. Why fix what isn't broken?

This above all worries me the most, Sometimes sega just doesn't get it. The last thing I want is for Mania to ditch it's current beautiful look for something subpar or not up to snuff in comparison, again why risk this when you could re-use/redesign current assets not only saving time and money but preserving the charm and style we're being presented with?
I do agree classic sonic needs to stand up with modern sonic but I think Mania is standing on it's own as is and may even prove the point that the retro pixelated style isn't lacking in comparison.

Maybe we should move this conversation to the mania topic? I'm enjoying it, don't want to derail the thread though lol.

 

Top is Rayman Legends, bottom is Ori and the Blind Forest. Both are fully 2D games that received retail releases, and both received critical praise across the board (with their presentation being part and parcel of their acclaim), both were cited by their respective publishers/developers to have become profitable shortly after their release. And those were new or smaller IPs in comparison to an IP with the legacy of (classic) Sonic--a great Sonic game with similar production values would be almost guaranteed to perform much better saleswise.

And for what it's worth, the inverse can happen as well. While Megaman 9 got tons of praise for its retraux throwback style to the earlier Megaman games, Megaman 10 continued that style and received a considerably more lukewarm response in comparison. There hasn't been a new Classic-series Megaman game since then either; though Capcom's poor treatment of the general Megaman IP is in part the main culprit as to why that is.

I really doubt that if another classic Sonic game appeared that had HD 2D graphics (or alternatively, was another 2.5D game), most people would really be complaining. It's not like classic Sonic can't inherently work outside of low-resolution sprites, the sidescrolling levels in Generations are generally considered graphically amazing, even with the backgrounds being busier than desired. It's a matter of how well the artstyle itself is done, rather than simply the graphics style itself.

And for what it's worth, I don't hate Mania's Saturn-style retraux look, I think it looks great, and given the intended passion-project style of the game, I think it fits the project. But I wouldn't want classic Sonic as a whole to be tied to that, especially since the series was reputable for being a showcase.

 

The question as old as time itself has finally been answered.

 

I have played both they are indeed excellent examples of full retail 2d games. They are also packed with content however, Rayman Legends for example not only has a ton of levels for you to play with, they also allow you to go back and play origins as well as some multiplayer modes. Mania is a call back to the classic trilogy, a short but sweet type of play style. Not saying that this isn't enough but it may be worth looking into adding more bang for one's buck.

Indeed, there's a certain charm that games like this capture and I think in it's current state Mania has exceedingly captured it.

I'm not against a new HD 2d sonic or the classic series evolving to that but I also feel that Mania as it's own entity should have a consistent style to it. IF by chance Mania becomes a complete trilogy I wouldn't want it's sequels to suddenly be an overhaul graphically. I say give this team a chance to shine with not just Mania but at least a Mania 2 and even 3, from that point on start fresh on a new 2d series with HD graphics as we know SEGA likes to change things up. As much as I wasn't too fond of Sonic 4 I was disappointed that it didn't at least finish the last chapter in it's series, to it's credit it stayed consistent to it's style which Sonic hasn't had going for it as of late.

 

Damn, my headcanon has always been that he's got robotic leg enhancements, but I guess that works too.

 

For the record, both of those games are 3D, the only 2D element is the gameplay, but we get the point.

 

Most of the art in those games is 2D, it's just that there are also some 3D elements. In Rayman Legends the parts where there are 3D models on top of 2D artwork are especially noticeable. :v:

Haven't played Ori and the Blind Forest recently enough to remember what in that game is 3D, but at the very least the background artwork is done in 2D.

 

There is a HUGE market for 2D games still. Consider that New Super Mario Bros Wii was the second greatest selling Mario game of all time, second only to the original Super Mario. Those graphics were a mix of 2D and 2.5D, but we can hardly chalk that success up to the extra .5D... However, had that game been pixelated like the originals I can't imagine it would have been anywhere near as successful. To say the mainstream want a new 3D Sonic more is not a fair comparison because that's all people have had to choose from for the most part, save the Sonic 4 abortion. You would reach the same conclusion about a 3D Mario game, that it is what most people want, and yet the sales figures show NSMB outsold them by many millions of copies. The facts is that a lot of people, myself included, find 3D games more difficult to play, ESPECIALLY 3D Sonic!

Let Mania be Mania, and if there is a Mania 2 I agree it should be consistent, but the whole point I was trying to make is that Classic Sonic needs to grow beyond just a throwback series and should be developed in parallel to Modern Sonic, not below it. Keep the amazing and accessible play style, keep the music, aesthetic and narrative, but update the graphics to go mainstream, just as NSMB did.