That's if you're talking about a classic Sonic game, I wasn't. I hate the idea that everything to do with the property has to be classic for people to like it, the mass amounts of fangames that are trying to be a Sonic 2/3 homage just irritate me, it's like nobody wants to do something else. (I don't think those fangames are bad, some of them are very nice-looking, but they're mostly the same.)
Not including special stages or bonus stages in SA1 was a really stupid decision. The series lost one of it's defining features and for what? Realism that didn't fit the franchise, eventually dragging it to it's lowest point. I love the special stages of the classic games, they offered variety of gameplay and an extra challenge.
Yes. Special stages also offered the chance for the developer to really stretch their imaginations, go wild, and create something really out there that wasn't bound by much reality at all; the fact that they always pushed the technology (which is a reason I love Rush's Special Stages), or at least offered something completely different, made them increasingly unique. This is something SA1 really needed to counterbalance its realistic environment. Just imagine going from an adventure stage and jumping to a Colors gameworld-esque Special Stage, or even one that play's like X-treme. Personally, I think it would be a randomly awesome change of pace, even if strange.
Sorry, you quoted mine so I thought it was. Still, why does everything have to be classic? Why can't Sonic take some ideas from modern games instead of taking them from 80s arcade games all the time? I think that's really bogging it down. I wouldn't mind special stages if they weren't all about "OMG LOL RUSH TO THE EXIT WITH THIS MANY RINGS" or "DON'T FALL IN THE WRONG PLACE OR YOU FAIL" Why do they have to be such a pain in the ass? If they're going to vary on gameplay, can't they find some other way to introduce surrealism into the games? Mario 64 had secret areas where you had to find five silver stars to get one power star, something a little more exploration-based with the same risk involved that everywhere else in the game had would be nice.
Every fan is a game designer, but none of them are actually interested in making something that would sell. Gee, I wonder why most of the ideas suggested here never show up in actual commercial Sonic games.
I wouldn't mind seeing the 3D fast-fast-fast modern Sonic gameplay taken out of the main gameplay and turned into special stages, and having the classic 2D gameplay to take the forefront. The modern gameplay is basically a shitload of seamlessly linked QTE's anyway (homing attack chains, light dashing, quick step sections, drifting sections, etc).
Do you have any idea what a QTE is? None of those things are QTEs, unless you count pressing buttons as being a QTE, in which case every video game ever made is a series of QTEs.
Right. Like so many other people here have said, Sega hasn't really been one to play the nostalgia card, or least play it well. In fact, I would argue that they haven't played it enough over the years, especially once we went past the Genesis era. The first time we really saw them call back to anything specifically was in Sky Sanctuary back in Sonic & Knuckles, when we saw Mecha Sonic use the Green Hill Zone and Metropolis Zone bosses again. Those were fun nods to the previous games in the series, and weren't the final fight. Yes, you could say Mecha Sonic's fight was essentially the same as his previous appearance in the Death Egg Zone in Sonic 2, but the whole way it was presented made it a fun detour that hyped you up for what was to come. He once again was the prelude to the Death Egg, only this time you got a full level out of it. That was nostalgia done right...except you can't really say it was nostalgia since the series was only three years old at that point. If a modern game were to pull something similar to what we got out of Sky Sanctuary, I don't think people would be complaining. Sonic Colors also got it kinda right, reusing some classic enemies we hadn't seen in ages. Sonic 4, on the other hand, did it in the worst way possible. And I think that ruined the idea of Sega ever playing the nostalgia card. It wasn't a throwback that made you go "oh yeah, I remember that bit in that one game." It was more "oh I remember playing this before but it being way better." Generations had an excuse for being all sorts of nostalgia since that was the whole point of the game, but they still could have done a better job and cramming in even more. That was the perfect excuse to go super crazy, but instead they were simply moderately crazy. One of those missed opportunities that they can't really attempt again for years, or else it will seem like another rehash. I think the Mario series has always been good at playing the nostalgia card. Reusing the classic Mario theme in certain places, having reoccurring enemies appear when you lest expect them, and of course the welcomed addition of Throwback Galaxy in Super Mario Galaxy 2. Nods and homages that never really feel like they are overpowering the experience. Sonic needs more of that, and not in the hamfisted way of Sonic 4 Episode 1. Episode 2 seems to be better at the concept, but it could certainly be refined. Did you know I'm a QTE. You can push my buttons all night long I...right, we have to tackle all of this at once. I know you have mentioned your aversion to arcade-style gameplay in the past (such as in that time topic that I will not get into), but...turning the special stage into "collect five things to get one thing" doesn't seem that interesting to me at all. Having the special stages simply be a Sonic level with a slightly different goal doesn't make it special. What made the special stages interesting is that they played by completely different rules than the standard game. In Sonic 1, we had to navigate a constantly rotating maze where Sonic had to search to find the Chaos Emerald. In fact, I'm surprised you hate this one so much, since it deals with what you praise so much - exploration. I know there is the whole "go the wrong way and you get kicked out" aspect, but it's all about trial and error. You can go back to them later on. You can practice, you can learn the nuances of each map until you finally get to the point where you know all their secrets and get to the emerald with ease. If you beat the game without all the emeralds, you can play it again. The games were meant to be played more than once, you know. I would love for a modern special stage to exist. I would also love if it wasn't a throwback to a previously done special stage. Really, that should be the land of the gimick. They can go absolutely crazy in designing these surreal worlds that are even far removed from what other places Sonic is going through in the main game. It doesn't have to be "get 50 rings!" or "get all the blue spheres!" Which...hold on, those are goals that are basically collect-a-thons, just done at high speeds. Why do I have this strange feeling that you would love the Sonic 2 special stages if you could walk through them, and also turn around if you missed a ring? Still, the special stage is one of the building blocks to the whole Sonic experience. It is meant to give off some sort of mini-game feeling because it isn't part of the main game. You have to beat them to get the "good ending," but if all you're interested in is the rest of the game, then you can just ignore them. It's not the like the bad ending of any Sonic game makes you feel bad, or shows Sonic actively losing...well, ok, the bad ending of Chaotix can be nightmare fuel. But other then that, you really just get an annoyed Sonic and then a taunting Eggman after the credits. The special stages provide variety in a formula that has existed for decades. Even the Super Mario Bros series have had mini side-quests or matching games or what have you to break up the gameplay. You can pick it up and recognize as part of the whole package, but it gives your mind something else to do. So yeah, I do agree with you that they need to try new things with the Special Stage. I just don't think they should necessarily look towards "modern gaming" to do it. Shadow the Hedgehog looked toward modern gaming. We all saw what happened there. As for your love of 3D gaming...well...Sonic never has been a collect-a-thon type game. It isn't a Rare game. You collect rings, but you don't need to get them all. You collect Emeralds, but that is in a separate world entirely. I was always annoyed by how you got the Chaos Emeralds in Sonic 1 and 2 for the Game Gear because it made me feel like the emeralds weren't anything special. They were just lying on the ground for anyone to get. In their Genesis counterparts, the emeralds were sealed off in another dimension something you couldn't easily just stroll into. You had to work to get at them. The lack of special stages in Adventure didn't bother me that much because of how the story ended up using them, but after that point...yeah. It just didn't work for me anymore. oh um. Ok right. I know this really doesn't have anything to do with the topic, but...Knuckles' absence is Unleashed isn't really a plothole at all. It could have been done super easily, of course. Knuckles showing up because the Master Emerald shouted at him makes sense, too. But it has never been established that the Master Emerald would go out of its way to shout at Knuckles that the Chaos Emeralds are being fucked with. It never said anything to him before the events of Sonic the Hedgehog 3, when there were actually two sets of emeralds and Knuckles was guarding one set of them. The Master Emerald didn't go "hey bub, maybe you should find the other seven so they can merge together and be whole again because they aren't yet lol." The only other time we've seen the emeralds really messed with was at the end of Sonic Adventure, and Knuckles wasn't around the Master Emerald to see if it would have shouted at him. So really, it's just Sega not taking advantage of Knuckles, not them creating a plothole that ignores established continuity. Even if Knuckles was there, do you really think they wouldn't have included the levels you hated on anyway.
Because they are optional; They aren't required to complete the game. They are made to be challenges, that need some kind of capacity of skill to complete, so that its completion is much more rewarding than just unlocking whatever bonus it does. Since it isn't required for game completion (and unlocks great bonuses), the developers gloves can come off, and they can make it as difficult as they darn well please so that you actually have to work for the reward. Personally, I would like my Special Stages to pose some sort of challenge; I usually don't prefer a time limit, but fake exits/traps like red spheres and GOAL Blocks, do just fine for me (as well as things like an increase in speed that artificially create more difficulty but technically don't kill you). Heck, I wouldn't mind having Sonic Jump styled special stages for games like the Sonic Advances.
Whilst we're on the subject of special stages, I wouldn't mind seeing the good old Sonic 2 tube once more, but (to make it 'special') rendered like a Jeff Minter wet dream. Think colours, blurry particles and general visual mindfuckery. That's what I want. Spoiler And I alone, most likely.
Something that looks like Spheres of Chaos meets Sonic then? (Warning, bright flashy colors) http://youtu.be/aPIuzV9sXbw Maybe something not as crazy as this, though. :v:
Because I would. I like exploration on MY terms, and that means going everywhere in a level. A game that prevents me from or punishes me for exploring everything like classic Sonic games does frustrates me. That's not fun, that's just developers being lazy. You can throw out a bunch of "OH WELL YOU JUST DON'T LIKE CHALLENGE LOLOLOL" insults and they won't mean a damn thing to me considering Spyro and Tomba were focused on exploring everything and those games were not easy. You people hate backtracking and I hate playing fucking Green Hill over. I think a level should be fully explored the first time to find everything in it as opposed to playing it over again because some asshole developer thought it would increase replay value. I put down Sonic 1 halfway through the game because of how dated and archaic it is. I only beat Sonic 2 because of the co-op, I think they're repeatedly making themselves not fun for me because of all the arcade bullshit they had to throw in there. Mario's minigames have never aggravated me beyond livid. I have never done physical damage to a TV over Mario games. Nintendo does something SEGA has never gotten through their thick skull and that's make a game fun and accessible without being a blowjob for so-called "hardcore" gamers and a nightmare for anyone just looking for an escapist diversion. Using Shadow as an example is only acknowledging one type of modern game. By "modern" I mean for them to throw away this arcade bullshit that is bogging down the series. Mario wasn't always the way it was in 64 so why can't Sonic be more about collecting? It'd make the levels more interesting and the gameplay more of a controlled pace. I'd like it much more if the series would take the good points of modern games. Modern games give players choices on how to play; Sonic can do that by giving different character options and not FORCING speed on you, not everyone who got into the franchise wants to play a racing game thinly veiled as a platformer. Sonic Adventure is not my idea of a good example for the emeralds, I don't want them to just pop up in a story, I don't want Super Sonic to be an endboss thing, I want to find them but I want to do it without the insane trial and error of the classic games. I got thoroughly annoyed every time I died in Mario 64 and was thrown out of the level. That made the game tedious to play, imagine how tedious I think classic Sonic is by comparison, I want to play a game one time, and be able to go back for anything I miss, and stay in a level for an extended time to collect everything instead of having to replay the entire fucking game for that. I'm a completionist, not getting an item in a game drives me insane (And is also why I stopped playing mainstream Pokemon games) so "not getting everything" is ludicrous. If you want a summary, one thing that I think is ESSENTIAL AND REQUIRED of modern games are choices. Choices in playstyle and choices without obscene consequences. An RPG like Skyrim gives you the option of how to build your character. You can't master every skill but the game doesn't block off entire sections of itself if you can't pick locks, Skyrim is a prime example of choices, because instead of being a douche like classic Sonic, it doesn't shut its doors to "less skilled" or more importantly, "less interested" players and instead gives them an alternative that they can choose. In the case of a platformer, you can either complete a level in one go on Spyro or come back to it later, it doesn't just become unavailable to you at a certain point, the latter should just be viewed as a design flaw instead of a feature because it does nothing for the player besides frustrate them and force them to restart their game. The idea that a video game should be "Do this or you don't get this" is a dead concept to me, the modern translation is "There are several ways you can accomplish the same thing" and that's how it should be, with a few exceptions such as boss fights.
I dunno, I kinda like the arcade way that the Classic Sonic games play, especially in the special stages. Back then it gave me a huge sense of accomplishment whenever I reached one of the deeper levels in the game, such as Labyrinth Zone or Metropolis zone, or I completed one of the later special stages and unlocked the ability to be Super Sonic, it feels good that my hard work payed off, and wasn't just handed to me easily with no challenge. Sure, exploring can be tons of fun depending on the game, but this is Sonic. While yes, you can explore levels, but he isn't exactly about taking a leisurely stroll through Green Hill to sniff the flowers, it's about being quick, being good at platforming, and finding these little secrets within your own route that you want to take. It sorta sounds like you're the minority here on this, if you want games where you can explore, that's what sandbox games like Minecraft and such are for. But on the subject of special stages, I positively loved how they were shown in Sonic 1. That surreal background, that gentle lullaby sounding music, it makes it sound like you're in some other dream realm. I also quite liked how they displayed in Sonic 3, since it again makes it feel like you're on some surreal 3D planet with different dimensions compared to Sonic's world. Now if they could somehow combine that with the modern Sonic setting, it'd be a surefire winner for me. Perhaps have a blue sphere collecting on a much larger planet/planets with obstacles, and using boost to propell yourself to other planets sorta like Mario galaxy, that sorta thing. But other than that I am sorta sick of seeing the Sonic 2 special stages done over and over in each game, there's only so much half pipe one hedgehog can take :v:
^ I don't play Sonic games because they're hard. I play them because they're fun. At this point I can basically play any new Sonic game and understand it in a matter of hours. The gameplay and style is expected, and I'm just going along to enjoy the ride. Sure, they were hard back in the day when I was young, but now they're easy, and I enjoy them as they are.
Fair enough, but I enjoyed Sonic Adventure, especially the chao, as they were, and for what they could have been, but never were, because apparently Sonic is never supposed to be too different from what the Genesis games were even though that's exactly what happened to Mario. Mario 64 plays differently from Mario 3, Mario wasn't about exploring in Mario 3, but it was in Mario 64 and Sunshine, so I don't see why the 3D Sonic games can't be more like Rare games. All SEGA does lately is one thing. It probably doesn't help that Nintendo also owns 3 other franchises that do different things whereas SEGA owns one people still give a shit about that relies on nostalgia.
I think part of the reason is collecting stuff and exploring is slow, and Sega wants to identify Sonic as speed speed speed, even if some don't approve. That's part of the reason why people don't like Hub Worlds. They're slow. Mario had to change, since those levels were basically just straight line zone all over the place and he's not fast enough to make it interesting. Sonic had the opposite effect though, the levels became more linear roller coasters. Sega needs to bring other characters back that can explore. If they don't want Sonic to, Knuckles can. As long as the levels are open enough for nonessential exploration (Extra stuff you can find, not essential), I don't see the problem. Sega has been trying to throw in collectable shit lately with the red rings.
Jesus Christ, guys. If you want to have a discussion about the merits of modern game design, go make a new thread in General Gaming, but don't steer another thread so ridiculously off-topic again.
