Sonic AYII

I was thinking of a stomp move. I dunno why, I just thought of it. The bubble shield isn't much of a 'stomp' as it more or less sets your speed when going down and then bounces you up. It's something that breaks the gameplay. I'm thinking of something that carries your momentum thus meaning that you don't go into a set speed, you gain speed, and would also allowed for more paths to be opened. As well as more badnick ideas.

So something like this:

The image fails, but it somewhat gets what I want across somewhat. So basically a move which allows you to go downwards, but it still maintains your motion. So if you're moving fast, you may overshoot your target, which will put you on the next path.

What I'm finding a bit weird right now, is why people are going "WE NEED MORE SPEEDSPEEDSPEED" when they're complaining about Modern Sonic being about the EXACT same thing. I personally like the wall jump idea, as it allows for some creative ideas for some levels.

I feel that most Classic Sonic levels are very open. Very few of them really had a "GOTTA GO FAST BRO" kind of attitude to me actually. Maybe it's because there's so much stuff to do in some levels. They just feel pretty big.

But really, that's just me. It's all up to Sonica. My stomp idea isn't really original (I'm pretty sure it's been done before in fangames). But what we really need to think about is this:

Does this move allow for more exploration or is it more about speed? And does it help Sonic/the Player in any way

I mean, who actually USED the double tap move in Sonic Advance 2? Or even heard of it if they didn't read the manual?

 

I support having a wall jump, it worked pretty well in Sonic XG and adds to level design variety. Plus as already stated, Sonic needs two vertical walls close by in order to take the route, making Knuckles/Tails exclusive vertical routes still possible.

 

I just feel like throwing this one out there right now; make of it what you will. I think Knuckles could have a mid-air uppercut/hook attack. By pressing up while jumping (again, I'm trying to give more purpose to the Up button) he would punch upward to be propelled higher. The punch would behave kind of like Sonic's Double Spin (with the split-second hook animation, before the upward punch), followed by a punch that destroys any Badnik above him, except after he uses it he's vulnerable to attack until he hits the ground (as a means to balance the utility of the uppercut and the glide).

I mean, Knuckles already has a flight move that hits everything in front of him, and he can climb walls to go higher, so he may not really need more attacks, but at the same time, Knuckles' jump sucks, and he's the only character who has no way of hitting things above him mid-jump.

 

An idea to reuse some of the old stuff: in Chaotix and CD you could be shrunken down and enlarged. If you encorporate the Chaotix Monitors, you can add one time limited opportunity for exploration of otherwise unaccessable parts.
When Sonic is big he'll be able to jump very high, or possibly have a vertical force that allows him to break some floor or ceiling (as opposing to Knuckles breaking walls).
OR these transformations don't come from monitors, but instead from a "warp switch" which again gives you temporal resize of the character, but now you can go back if you run out of time and use the transformation again and again.
And if the section that you have to pass has more than one door, if you return to original size before you pass all doors, there will be a way for you to fallback to your original route.

There can be also a door or passage that lets you through only if you use the insta shield, that way tails alone wont be able to pass it.

 

I thought the level design in Sonic 2 Retro Remix was really good and I have no problem with sections being made specifically for wall jumping.

I disagree, but difference preferences I guess.

Most of the criticism toward that game was due to the forced exploration from the emerald collecting. I don't think I've seen anyone in that thread complain about the controls.

 

I was going to go about a long speech and had one written out, but I deleted it and am going to bring up the only point I need for Sonic having a wall-jump.

Mighty the Armadillo. Mighty is in no doubt a red Sonic. Mighty is my evidence that in the mid nineties, Sonic Team would have given Sonic a wall-jump for a possible Sonic 4. Granted, I'd have the control so that it requires two walls, but there's no doubt that the similarities between the two are incredibly strong.

Also I have a few musical doodles from my project "Itadakimasu" if you'd like them. Most of them might not fit what you have in mind but I can try other genres if you so desire.

 

If you're going to put in a wall jump, at least make it more like Modern Sonic's wall jump. Might's wall jump from Chaotix is far to abusable and is essentially just Knuckles climbing. Modern Sonic's wall jump is limited to only being useful when there's another wall, so Sonic couldn't sneak his way into potentially Knuckles/Tails only paths

 

Technically Overlord, it's called the "Strike Dash" in the 8-bit games and makes Sonic invulnerable for a few seconds so it's slightly different. xP Or in my port to Sonic 2, makes him able to destroy breakable walls. :v: Anyway on topic, I think the wall jump should be like Dark Sonic stated, makes more sense IMO. And personally, I don't think the Super Peel-out should be included, since it seems to appear in every hack and a few fangames nowdays. Gets boring after seeing it many times. :\

 

I like the super peel-out a lot. Only major issue I have with it is when I'm trying to look up and jump.

 

This. Not a fan of the wall jump myself, mainly because I don't have faith in finding a good implementation of it.

I find the wall-jump-repeatedly-between-2-walls scenario pretty much just as boring, predictable and patronising as a homing chain. If you're going to implement a wall jump, at least don't make it about obvious set pieces like this, imo. Design uses that people haven't really imagined too much, or uses that players can't notice at a glance. I would go so far as to say that designers should avoid the ascend-2-walls scenario completely.

Lots of interesting points about the idea anyway. I agree with Pedro (I think it was) in saying that adding an air dash wouldn't be great. It would redefine the game too much in that if you lose all your speed, all you do is mash air dash again, to the point where the player learns that this is how the game feels now.

 

As much as I think S2RR is the greatest hack ever and as far as I'm concerned plays better than the classics, the pacing and play style of that hack is very different to what the classics are and what the majority of classic gameplay fans like. All the extra abilities that have been put in that game just work period (and I never thought I'd think that of the homing attack) but it's questionable if the wall jump would work in a game trying to be old skool.

 

I actually thought a stomp move could work out as well. If the wall jump doesn't make it in then giving Sonic the ability to stomp could definitely be a way for Sonic to take exclusive paths. And maybe this is a dumb idea but what if the stomp move was a shield power for Sonic instead of just a regular move? There's already been discussion of potential new shields and keeping with the theme of elemental shields the logical choice for a fourth shield would be some sort of earth shield. And perhaps the earth shield could grant Sonic the ability to stomp the ground. As for it's secondary ability that all characters benefit from maybe the shield could simply be twice as strong as the rest and allow characters to take two hits before losing it.

 

While I'd rather see the bubble shield be used for stomping, a rock shield could have stomping feature similar to Stone Kirby.

 

The Super Peel Out is simply called the "Dash" in Japan, so it might make sense that the Strike Dash is a modified form of it.

As for its inclusion, my opinion is that it should be ubiquitous at this point. Boring or not, it's one of Sonic's moves and there's no reason he should stop being able to do it. I don't think there's any level design that it breaks.

 

I'll maintain that keeping the walljump idea based on Sonic ping ponging off the wall would probably be best solution to this problem. Initiate a wall jump fast enough and you keep your momentum when jumping in the opposite direction, otherwise you start to slide for a second before dropping. Jumping during the slide results in a set walljump speed like Unleashed/Generations. The two walls upward corridor design should be very limited in their use in a base form. Level design like this is what I was going for:



Sonic still can't get to places Tails and Knuckles could if there was a sheer wall, but he could easily take advantage of this without a brake in the pacing and keep taking the high route. By keeping his speed from the wall jump he can run up the curve and on the roof. The move doesn't, or rather shouldn't, have to be prominent or required. It just needs to be there as an option.


For a two walled example:



Here the dark blue path comes from a speeder high route with the momentum required to make the wall jumps. The light blue is from a slower lower path, and if Sonic attempts the jump here or mistimes the blue path he can't make it to the second wall and is reduced to the lower path. It keeps him in line with speed. The fixed velocity idea slows down the game, but this should keep the pace.


The rest we can leave to shield powers. Adding any more would grant Sonic more moves anyway. I still like the Air shield giving Sonic the momentum bouncing homing attack ala balloons in generations/color plus wind gimmick resistances on top of the earth shield allowing for a rock slam move while preventing crushing. That's two additional moves right there.


I've also been thinking more about level design for forest act stuff too. I stole a little bit from some of the Retro project scrap work, but here's an idea for a nice set piece. Sonic runs off from a forest clearing down through the spiral tree branches all the way down deep into the forest's valley and into it's treeline. You could also use the top of the loop as an alternate path that launches you into a higher up portion of the lower forest. I would really like to see more of a meadow/tree/meadow theme going for the first act or so, where it progressively gets more forest like through a transitional set piece like this one. For naming, Winding Woodland is a catchy.

 

Hell, at this point why not have Sonic's walljump work like the one in Fancy Pants and call it a day? Maybe incorporate some level design features from it to complement that.

 

Putting aside for a moment the topic of wall jump and other shitty abilities...

Emerald Moon.

The inner hub of Egg Island (imagine it with a Robotnik tash).

At night

 

Those images look awesome.

 

Oh, okay, but then (when playing as Tails) flying up slowly between two walls by pressing the jump button 30+ times is totally not boring or tedious at all, I see, never mind! :v: =P