Sonic Generations Megathread

Have you actually thought about this before you deemed it as "plain crap"?

The Werehog's platforming would certainly be improved with Knuckles' gliding and climbing abilities. Combat could actually work with Knuckles, as long as they aren't alway's required for stage progression, and are normal one-hit-kill badniks/enemies (meaning, no barriers that "restrict you until you've defeated every enemy", and no life-bars for enemies). Basically, it would pretty much be SA1 Knuckles, except with maybe another attack button and semi-linear stages with actual destinations/goal rings. Enemies are destroyed for more points, but are not a requirement to actually finish the stage.

When people say Knuckles could've replaced the Werehog, I don't think people mean just a Knuckles skin w/glide; Knuckles is a more agressive, combat-oriented character, so he is conceptually more suited for gameplay in which you could actually fight enemies with your fists if you wanted to. Therefore, it could have at least made a whole lot more sense to have Knuckles of all characters, to do things like climbing, breaking otherwise unbreakable walls/objects, and destroying badniks by punching them (not to mention that he could still just jump on enemies if he wanted to).

 

Pretty much! So basically, combat could work so long as combat isn't the focus? Fine. "Sonic with a punch attack". That's fine. We should all start saying things to that effect so we're not tacitly suggesting that there was anything redeemable about getting locked in a room and mashing the attack button for three minutes until the enemies decide to stop spawning, like Knuckles was the only thing missing.

Still, in a series all about flow, having to break that flow to land a punch doesn't strike me as a particularly inspiring notion. How would that enhance my gaming experience? Why not just jump or roll? How much thought did you put into this?

 

I disagree entirely. When you play these kinds of games, the difference having 3 miles of meticulously detailed scenery vs having 3 miles of repeating level chunks is night and day. You seem to be complaining that you don't need that level of detail because you wiz by it, but thinking like this is ignoring what happens when you take the level in as a whole.

The rest of your post reads like the standard "I don't like it, so I'll claim it's broken" spiel. You are aware several people find that style of gameplay very fun?

Yeah I noticed this too, and got really excited as well. I remember seeing that image in the back of game magazines, in tons of those import-by-mail adverts, all the damn time. It blows my mind how Sega nailed the visuals in generations. It doesn't just look good, it looks fucking identical to many of the concept art images. I'm a huge Sonic fanboy, but the level of detail put into generations thus far has surpassed even my wildest expectations.

Now this I agree with. Sonic Adventure may not be the most polished of the post-genesis sonic games, but it feels the most cohesive. I see lots of people claim that SA2 was the last great Sonic game, but I call SA2 the start of all the series problems. It was probably the first main sonic game that I felt let-down from after I finished.

 

This is actually highly relevant. I've experimented with adding combat to my own Sonic engine. The ideas I had all sounded great on paper but in practice turned out to be fundamentally at odds with the way Sonic moved. In an effort to find out what I was doing wrong I researched a lot of games with combat in them, and came to realise just how different Sonic feels from most of them. You don't notice these things from memories alone - all sidescrollers are just the character moving left and right, right? - but direct comparison is very illuminating.

I'm not saying it's impossible to have combat in Sonic gameplay, but it'd take some serious revolutionary thinking to make it work. Grafting another game engine onto Yuji's mechanics won't cut it, but that's what always seems to happen. Even in the Advance series the B button moves feel totally out of place.

 

Knuckles wouldn't have the homing attack - he has a glide, remember? And the homing attack is a sonic move. Mario gained a punch for the same reason knuckles would have one - jumping on enemies in 3D is kinda hard. Not impossible, and it can be made to feel natural like in Mario Galaxy, but it's still harder than simply punching something. Which is why knuckles would have that attack, and why he had it in SA1.

I always thought something akin to the way you attack in Ninja Gaiden on the NES would work with sonic. I.E. you could attack while running full speed without missing a beat, basically turning you into a giant collision box for a second that damages anything it touches, before returning you to your normal state. Beyond this mechanic in Ninja Gaiden, it actually is a very normal platformer. I figure combat in Sonic could be like this and succeed, especially in 3D.

 

We're talking Green Hill here and not Spagonia, where you know you're looking at the same damn building six times over at any given moment. It's a given that a lot of the background geometry we're seeing here has probably been cut and pasted elsewhere, but it's all meticulously well-placed and detailed enough that I can't see a single seam. There's a lot of one-off props out there, and it's enough to make me feel like everything interesting is everywhere but the path I'm traveling on. My complaint is that it's effort gone to waste- if they'd just slow the game down and let me climb this shit, it'd take me 40 minutes to cover it all.

I'm aware that I've not seen a single explanation justifying it! But then I don't get the appeal of rhythm games either, and that's pretty much the same premise here. I don't think it's a niche that best suits Sonic.

Rolling into them isn't! And if that isn't an option for some inconceivable reason, that's only lending credence to my claim that Sonic and combat go together about as well as ice cream and dick.

Only in 3D. The homing attack is a much more elegant solution, really.

EDIT: Wait, no it isn't! What you're describing is pretty much the insta-shield and that's exactly what I want. My compromise that I've proposed at least twice now is a magnetic attraction function over a straight-up homing attack, the difference being that the former would preserve your horizontal and vertical momentum so you could Crawla bounce without fussing over stuff like skill or anything.

 

You're still doing what I said you're doing. You're concentrating on small details instead of taking the world in as a whole. It's greenhill zone, yes, but with enough detail to make it seem real. The unleashed games are honestly how I imageined this gen would be - ridiculous amounts of detail, just because

Rhythm games are among my favorite games, and they're hardly niche given their audience.

When you roll, you're propelled forward in a line. A punch lets you position yourself carefully before hand and redirect yourself during the attack.

A method of attack, that I'm borrowing directly from one of the greatest 2D games of all time, would only work in 3D? LMAO ok...

 

I think you're totally missing the point, because I'm not approaching this as a visual issue at all! They went through all the trouble to craft this sprawling environment that looks way more fun than the actual stage and all I'm asking for is an opportunity to explore it all. Bring it all closer together, fill in the bottomless pit, craft this junk with actual gameplay in mind and have Tails and Knuckles fuck around over there. Making a stage as huge as what I'm proposing would sound like a gargantuan undertaking any other way, but they've already done most of the hard work. Having to blow right through it is an inconsolable tease.

They're a niche, same as platformers, shooters and any other genre. You can substitute "genre", by the way. Don't want you getting confused! My point is that Sonic had his own unique thing going and it's about time he got back to it.

Unless you hit the control stick, right? Then you get a bit of a Bézier curve going. That's how rolling has always worked for Sonic in 3D.

Swap "attack" with "jump". Think back to the Advance games and all those hazards you slammed into every other moment because you missed your cue by about 20 centiseconds. Tell me why this isn't a good idea.

Oh, and whenever Ninja Gaiden comes up, I never hear people talking about how great it was, so much as how grueling and unfair it was. Food for thought

 

I'm not quite following this, but needless to say I never had a problem with the Advance games.

To be honest, I think the insta-shield would work very well in 3D, however, I believe the homing attack is the better solution, as Sonic tends to go at very high speeds, and gauging your jump is and would continue to be difficult. Not only that, but if you had to slow down to attack the enemy, well, that wouldn't be very good now would it? 2D Sonic (The classics and Advance series) works well without the homing attack because Sonic has a speed cap, and even in games where he goes faster than usual (Advance 2), enemies are well placed at spots where you're made to slow down to figure things out. Other times the spin dash/roll takes care of enemies on the go, unless you're idiotic enough to think that running through the game with no protection won't get you hurt.

Games like Rush/Unleashed need this home attack as a core feature, because of the way the gameplay has evolved to go through combos and the like. Advance 2 had a home attack but it was skillfully used because you had to be right on top of the enemy to use it, and very close by, and then it would slow you down and if you were jumping past an enemy at speed it wouldn't hit. Actually, this version is what I prefer. I enjoyed the home attack in Sonic 4, and will continue to enjoy it in Ep II, but I wouldn't want it as a regular thing, purely to mix the 2D formula up once in a while. Kinda like how Sonic CD used the Super Peel Out- we haven't seen it since.

Edit; just read back some of the previous posts about the Werehog stages, Knuckles style levels and 'special attacks'. Never had an issue with the 'Special Attacks' in the Advance series, in fact, they were all brilliant evolutions of what defined the characters in Sonic 3 & Knuckles- adding more character but not giving us something entirely new and made up. I always wanted to punch as Knuckles- then I could in the Advance games. I always wanted to do backflips and tricks as Sonic as he does in the anime and 3D games- so I could do. I always wanted to do the Tail-swipe as Tails in 2D, so I could. None of it breaks the gameplay or differs it from Sonic 3, but it adds variety.

When you go and create a level style which is entirely comprised of mashing left and right on the Gamecube control, and occasionally jumping very slowly and not very high, as well as not being able to use the joystick to decide the acceleration and moving speed of a character in tricky, bland, linear and slow platforming sections, that's where the shit starts. You COULD replace Werehog with Knuckles, but you'd still have that same crappy gameplay. I never had a problem with Knuckles' 3D levels, and before Sonic 2006, I never had a real problem with any gameplay styles except the shitty fishing levels. figthing can work easily in 3D Sonic games, as Knuckles (and Rouge) showed us, and even Shadow showed off a few moves in HIS game, but the level design really needs to be worked at.

If SEGA gave Sonic any shitty extra moves (apart from the whirlwind), I would go nuts. They've already gotten rid of 3D Sonic's spindash/roll, which is one of THE core elements of Sonic gameplay apart from his running and (inevitable) jumping. I wasn't too bothered that his spindash was left out of Colours because it has special moves etc, but they they really need to start bringing it back in future instalments.

Actually, I sound like a right moaner, but I'm very open to any new ideas that SEGA throw out to us. I had a problem with Bigs fishing levels, but I played the game 6 years after it was released- on Gamecube. I was annoyed at the Werehog stages, but they were utterly shit, repetitive, boring... well, y'know, all this has already been said a billion times.

 

This. Sonic's 3D outings beyond Adventure have apparently been designed to look good on a screenshot and not much more - basically showcasing these expansive 3D worlds Sonic will run across and eventually never does. All he ever does is run past all that pretty stuff the level is supposed to consist of, with some mild residues of unique design scattered here and there across this very flat and wide road that just happens to be whizzing across countryside, with the majority of what's remarkable about those graphics and designs being locked away by arbitrary borders not even excused by Sonic's physical world (read: invisible walls). Some call it Modern. I'd rather call it Marketing, because apparently it's faster this way, and in the end more profitable - resulting in several mediocre titles in a given period as opposed to a single longer-lasting and better-selling one. Oh well.

...on topic...the lessons SA2-Colors games teach are "don't walk on the grass, play on the road instead", "before walking though nature, build a highway through it", "pretend everything interesting in this world is impassable and intangible at the same time" and "make sure you HURRY the FUCK up and do THIS and THIS and THIS when someone tells you to". Frankly I find level design based on those rules to completely suck and currently see no indication that this game will be any different, but then again, the classic parts seem nice enough ... so I'm cool with at least 50% of the game I guess. (But of course we'll just have to wait and see before passing final judgement and all that.)

 

When it comes to Knuckles, the only question I have about his gameplay isn't 'how should he play', but rather 'why should he play'? The only reason he's been in any game post-SA2 (maybe even SA1) is a sense of nostalgia and tradition, and Generations has that in spades without his presence. Cameo if they pass through Angel Island? Great. Anything more? Nah.

 

Well Knuckles hasn't been a real important character since Sonic 06. He wasn't even in Unleashed or Colors, or Rush 2. I just like the character really. I mean, who cares about plot in a Sonic game. So Knuckles lives on Angel Island, who cares if he leaves every once in a while. Hell according to Unleashed Angel Island doesn't even exist anymore.

And as for the Knuckles playing like the werehog stuff, I don't necessarily condone pointless fighting pits, but Knuckles could have some slightly slower platforming and punching and stuff

 

This involves far more work than you're giving it credit for. They've basically just made scenery that looks good from a distance. Get up close to it and it'll look strikingly more plain, plus they haven't drawn the collision maps, or populated the terrain with interesting objects, not to mention playtesting it all, etc etc.

Making an environment that looks inviting and explorable is a lot easier than making one that's actually interesting and fun to explore. Which is why you only see lush freeform environments in games like Oblivion in which you move at a leisurely ambling pace.

 

Sorry, I have to stop you there- Unleashed as just an overview of the Sonic world split up into 7 parts. It still exists. If you can imagine our world being split into 7 pieces, do you really think that a major destination to visit would be your home town? Of course not, they'd likely be The City of London, Paris, Washington, Dubai, etc. Places that people know of which would be 'unusual' in some respect. Sonic Unleashed took a more 'realistic' approach to environments, but that's not to say it doesn't exist. Pretty much every Sonic game, excluding the Game Gear and arcade titles follows a canon, and within that canon SEGA like to mix up the Sonic world- lately they've moved on from San Franscisco, jungles and checkered hills, but everything else still exists, as Sonic generations will show when it merges Unleashed's/Colours styled world with the ones of other games. They've already focused a lot on Angel island, and as far as the 'core' games go, they don't generally recycle old levels.

 

It's harder, but not impossible. Sonic Adventure could afford to do this due to clever ways pathways were laid out throughout levels...collision maps in that game encompass stuff you'd never bother reaching, like the stone pillars in Red Mountain, boat rides in Twinkle Park and windmills in Windy Valley to name just a few - I mean it's kind of obvious it's bordered and kind of Mario 64-ish and stuff, but at least it lets you walk or explore around basically everything you see (Final Egg aside).

A combo of "stuff you can not touch" and "stuff you fall through" became prevalent once the designers got lazier and did not bother building stages efficiently enough to make it possible. A cleverly designed road leading across two proximal mountains could have afforded to have its collision checkers mapped fully. A grand-scale canyon of endless railroad tracks intertwining several mountain ranges simply could not. It doesn't necessarly mean the former was more boring to play, it's just that the latter went for excessive design - longer playing time meaning more money out of texture material - leading to corners cut here and there. The levels were expected to become much longer at expense of clever path incorporation and stuff...but fast forward like 2 generations it's gotten to the point where they no longer need to as much as position a fence or void to prevent straying off-track, all that needs to be done is the road to be slightly different from the "BG" grass to vouch for monopoly on walkability. Bah.

 

Oh I'm not saying that it doesn't exist because you never go to it, I'm just pointing out that there is no indication of Angel Island on the globe. You think you would see a floating continent somewhere on the globe.

 

It probably wasn't the first thing on their mind.

Or Dark Gaia caused to fall (again). I dunno.

Is all this really relevant to Generations though?

 

Because Angel island is so small, I would imagine it's unviewable from the point you are able to see earth from. On the Wii version, earth is so zoomed out. If you think that you cab barely see Britain on a well zoomed out map, in comparison, Angel Island is probably a maxium of 20 miles on the earths surface. It's not very big at all! Big enough to zoom around and have varying amounts of terrains within the confines of Sonic's world, but tiny in comparison to the globe. You weren't able to make out any defining features of Sonic's world on Unleashed, much to my disappointment. I'd have liked a checkered hill area just to smooth thngs out- Adventure 2 gave us that link once we beat the game, giving us Green Hill (which I'm 20 emblems off getting, damn )

Edit; yeah, we're discussing how the Sonic world forms a coherent story and environment, which is basically what Generations is about, right?

 

So I missed out over 62 pages. Englithen me, my comrades, what did Icey miss?

 

Hmm. You know, aside from the Insta-Shield (which I'd totally be satisfied with), am I the only one who's interested in Sonic having some move that enhances his maneuverability and influences the stage in a way that doesn't involve bottomless pits or split-second decisions? It could be something as simple as him being able to break apart a different kind of barricade, like a moving spiked barricade that can only be destroyed by a super mid-air spinning spike attack as opposed to just running into it with your spiked fist out. It might have to be slightly out of reach and out of the way, though, so to go along with that, give Sonic the Spike ability from Colors so he can roll or spindash along walls and ceilings to reach places neither Tails nor Knuckles could reach easily. It wouldn't make Sonic invulnerable to spikes, of course, but it would give him a more unique edge over his companions. The problem is implementing it control-wise and into the level design in such a way as to not kill the game's pace and still maintain flow. Considering how large and fun S3&K and CD were to play, I believe this can be done.

Speaking of CD, I hope we get to see Sonic shrunk again in Generations.

EDIT: Not much you can't find out on the front page, Icey. Right now we're discussing how the level design can be more like Adventure and less like Unleashed.