The Sonic the Hedgehog 4 Megathread

Copies? How odd. I don't remember those + - vines, tilt-controlled cannons, boulders, or tilt-controlled mine-carts, let alone an entire act dedicated to pinball scoring   in the original games. I also remember all of the bosses having a distinctly different behavior pattern once you hit them enough times, which to me constitutes something a bit more complicated than "the exact same boss."

And I don't see how quantity effects the nature of a homage. All you basically proved was that the entire game is a homage, rather than just one zone. So what's the difference, really? That the quantity and ratio of remix-to-originality isn't to a particular person's liking? Yes, granted. That doesn't alter the nature of the thing, however.

"Direct sequel," yes. Direct in terms of timeline continuity and series numbering. This means nothing in terms of what happened in the real world between games or who's developing the title, what the technology behind the title involves, or what the ones developing the game actually know about making a direct sequel to the 15-year-old game that numbers before it on this particular side of the franchise.

 

Take a look at Lost Labyrinth 1 around 1:03 and 1:43 (the platforming sections).

His horizontal speed seems to even stop completely while in the air, removing any momentum that may exist.

 

Adding a cannon or a gimmick stage doesn't change the fact that the levels aren't replicas to Casino Night and Green Hill zone. You're pointing out minor things while ignoring the entire level. They could have taken those little gimmicks you've mentioned and made an entire new stage and new enemies. Labyrinth Zone and Hydrocity Zone were both water levels but you didn't see Hydrocity reusing artwork from Labyrinth zone.

God damn Mega Man 9 had original levels and it was a better homage to Mega Man 2.



You can hear the influence from Wood Man here, but it's not Wood Man's theme, it's Concrete Man's theme. It's the little touches that make these good tributes, not the grand robberies.

I didn't point out anything was a homage. One or two level, sure, I could buy that. Hey look, this looks like Green Hill Zone, what a nice trip through memory lane! ...okay now this looks like Casino Night Zone... and this is Labyrinth Zone... this is Metropolis now. Death Egg Zone? What the fuck, there is not a single new thing here, this is all recycled ideas from older games.

It means everything. If you make a sequel you're expected to either match or surpass a previous title. Sonic 4 barely surpass Sonic 1 or 2 because it's a rip off Sonic 1 and 2.

 

Those didn't function in even remotely the same way.

...Not to mention they weren't vines, they were ropes with handles attached to them, which one would wonder about given the setting if it weren't even more surreal seeing a series of loop-de-loops formed naturally in the landscape and random springs in a tropical forest.

Essentially, yes. Functionally, no.

I wish... and even in that game the score was useless.

I like the idea. I think it looks fun—or would look fun, if the player in the leak weren't a complete fucking idiot with no restraint whatsoever, but yeah...

Really? I saw enough difference in at least three of the game's bosses to merit that distinction (not counting Casino Street's boss, which was different in the wrong fucking direction).

 

You're missing the point. We can moan about all the games in between Sonic and Knuckles and this game, but all those other games are irrelevant at this time. As has been said enough times before, the name of this game is Sonic 4. That is supposed to mean something.

A world-class development studio made the series that these pretenders are trying to cash in on. The painful truth is that Iizuka and Dimps together do not compare to the Sonic Team of old, and it's painfully clear in this game.

Man you have been apologizing for this game a lot lately. Did glem3 possess you or something?

 

Well, I would have pointed to the level layouts, but I thought that barely needed mentioning. :/

No, but fifteen years ago, seeing enhanced versions of old zone tropes wouldn't have been nearly as impressive, y'know, without the whole "HD" thing going for it and all.

Indeed. Too bad about all those blindside-the-player-with-instant-death traps, I probably could have got into it were it not it for those.

Although given the relative simplicity of the playstyle, it would have been kind of sad if they'd failed at that.

And then Eggman goes bonkers and skips across the screen, proving you wrong and taking your rings with him. Bet that was a shocker... or would have been, had the game not been spoiled from back to front by a marginally inept player with less talent at camerawork than gameplay.

But in all seriousness, the levels don't play like exact clones of any one stage in the classic series, and feature their own design aspects and elements. One would think that the homage/remix/rehash/whatever aspect would be somewhat more forgivable given the amount of time since these zones were made. I dunno, but to me it just looks like coming home after a very long and trying business trip that went absolutely nowhere (at least until the first Homing chain... fuck...).

And would you say Mega Man Instant Death Trap succeeded in this regard, since you and everyone else on the planet is so happy to compare this game to a retro revival of a series that has absolutely nothing in common with Sonic besides featuring a blue-tinted hero and a mad scientist comedy villain with the world's least intimidating army of robots?

Sure, maybe you're expected to surpass the previous number in the series. I've rarely seen it happen past the second game, but maybe it's a reasonable goal to consider. It is not an excuse for this everything-nao-or-nothing-kthxbai attitude I've been seeing from a fair few of the people I've conversed with, though.

 

lol... so much debatinnng.. keep it up guys hehe.

All I'll say is thanks Solaris for the clarifying to OSM. OSM, yeah you're missing my point a little. Iceknight, I agree with you... maybe you missed my thoughts a little too. Guess Who.. oh man, buried, gone, heh. I started reading but felt the urge to scroll. Sorry. If there's a particular thing I need to respond to I will if you tell me.

OSM - That post of mine you commented, it's like Solaris said and you missed my point. I'm not supporting the rehashed material, I'm saying it's the only acknowledgement Sega even give the classic fans in this game, and that is a bad thing. It's just a lame blanket; the only blanket they applied to cover the gaping lack of classic in the gameplay itself. Without the rehashed everything it would have been too obvious from day one that there's no classic game here. It's a dumb cover and it annoys me too.

Solaris, I'm quite surprised anyone would actually see this content as homage, not rehash. As someone else mentioned (in my 2 minute skim of 2 pages), all this old content has no other context to exist in. Real homage is a nod, not the defining environment. This entire world is only this content. It doesn't exist in another independent or new world. Ugh, I get such a feeling of "blegh" every time I consider it. It's as refreshing as swallowing a grey sock.

 

I'm more in the middle-ground as far as opinions on Sonic 4 go... I just have no qualms defending those aspects I think deserve some amount of defense, that's all.

Is being relatively pro-Sonic-4 a problem? =P

 

+ - Sonic Advance had the same physics.  

Mad Gear and Metropolis have plenty more similarities than differences.

This thread has returned to headache mode. Goodbye.

 

I see it as a "remix" rather than a "rehash," and I see remixing as a form of homage. I won't say they're doing it because they have some massive amount of respect for the classic series—I'm not a mind reader, but I find it more likely they just thought we'd react more positively toward it all than we actually did.

...No, it had slightly different physics that were trying to be the same but had a few problems. I thought that was brought up not too long ago in this very thread, actually.

Even so, that doesn't change what I said: it's not as easy as copy-and-paste.

Yeah, maybe so. I'll tone it down on my end.

 

But the whole game?

And even then.. if it was meant to be a deliberate tribute... aye. Oh man, nah it's cool. It doesn't really matter because it is so lost on me I can't even entertain justification without just wanting to not think of it. I think I'm a contender for world's-most-disappointed-by-Sonic 4's-content. I wanted a new game that shines with it's own identity. Oh man... I just shake my head. I would walk into their offices shaking my head and say "Guys, you have got to get real here."

 

Again, you're pointing out minor things and ignoring the fact that the entire visual design of all the stages are directly taken from previous games.

Now you're seriously going to stoop this low and start making bullshit up and name calling?

The reason everyone compares Sonic 4 to Mega Man 9 is because Mega Man 9 was a sequel, while having some questionable design choices, was done right. The game style may have nothing in common, but their end goal is similar. Make a game that is a successor to the original games that started it all. In the case of Mega Man 9, they decided to follow up the series by making a game that lived up to what everyone considered the peak of the series. How they accomplished this was by making the visual style match the NES games, the music closely resemble it, and nerfing Mega Man's abilities back to his basics while beefing up his boss weapons. After taking these elements from the Mega Man 2, they went ahead and built a new game based around this idea. This new game involved new enemies, new levels, new bosses but it had throwbacks to the series past here and there.

The end result was a game that felt and played exactly like the old Mega Man games we remembered. This wasn't Mega Man with card based power ups, or Mega Man with armored upgrades. This was Mega Man at his very basic. If I never played a Mega Man game after Mega Man 2, I could easily get into it without having to learn to use armor adaptors, charge shot, slide, hunt for blasted CDs or any other shit. It was classic Mega Man, it felt like classic Mega Man, it played like classic Mega Man and most importantly, it was a new Mega Man game.

What is Sonic 4? 2 levels from Sonic 1 and 2.

Do you want to know what was a proper tribute?

 

Yeah, the whole game. Argue it as a massive miscalculation or a poor design choice if you will, but it's really easy to see what the intent was. It's supposed to evoke feelings of familiarity and classic-ness. It's simple. Badly-executed, maybe, but really simple.

A game that shines with its own identity... yeah, I can really sympathize with that. You know, one of the things I loved about Unleashed was the see-the-world theme of it setting its aesthetic apart from the rest of the series in a way that '06's bland fantasy-realism just failed at. I don't want to see them do that again, but I loved it as Unleashed's own little trademark quirk.

And you know, if Sonic 4's own identity is that of a nostalgia trip, I'm not that opposed to it as long as it really is just Sonic 4's own identity and not something that becomes a running theme in a (hopefully) long-running foray back into the console-2D realm. It's not going to blow anyone's mind, but it's not exactly one of the unforgivable sins, either, and let's face it, once you settle down and accept that this is what this game happens to be about, it doesn't seem like such a bad thing. Actually, I think it's kind of nice in its own little way.

A combination of that and my usual habit of not getting my hopes up to begin with, well, that's why I'm so forgiving, I guess.

 

Sonic Pocket Adventure was a rehash. It has no unique gimmicks or enemies outside of the bosses, which were still rather samey and simplistic. Hell, were there even any original music tracks in that game?

I agree that Sonic 4's levels so far seem more "remix" than rehash, and that's honestly okay with me for now. It works with respect to the whole "prologue-episode" that's been touted, as well as for a numbered series that's long since been abandoned.

If the rest of the episodes follow this approach though, it will be a waste and a directional misfire.

 

I still have to question why they used Sky Sanctuary as a BGM for the Final Boss, but yea, I fucking love Pocket Adventure.

Also apologies Deef, I didn't read your initial post right. My mistake. This "blanket" SEGA threw over the game is very annoying indeed.

 

I don't mean to rain on parades or anything, but I don't get the impression that any future episodes of this game will show any more originality than this first one.

 

Actually I just really do not like Mega Man 9's tendency to blindside me with instant-death, something that even a few of my friends who like the game admit it does. I couldn't get into it at all because of that.

I was also kind of hoping you'd catch on to my point that a Mega Man game isn't exactly all that complicated in terms of design complexity, especially when you go all the way back to the Mega Man 2 style, but I guess I wasn't specific enough.

Also, sorry if I mistook your meaning. I understand what Mega Man 9 aimed to do (and for what it's worth, I appreciate it more from what I've played of Mega Man 10, which, if nothing else, hasn't blindsided me with instant death yet).

Eh, well, a new "old" Mega Man game, anyway. Not necessarily a bad thing, I just kind of wish it'd gone a less retro route in terms of its aesthetic. 8-bit graphics aren't exactly... something to brag about, really... even if people who grew up with them find them familiar in the warm and fuzzy way Sega was hoping we'd find the level tropes in Sonic 4 familiar.

Two level tropes from Sonic 1 and two (point one, he said, nodding at the barren hallway that was once known as Death Egg Zone before Sonic & Knuckles blew it out of the water) from Sonic 2.

Wait, what?

But that was twice the number of "rehashed" zones...

EDIT: You know what, hold that thought, I'm going to watch a full playthrough of this one to see exactly what your point is. It occurs to me that I've never seen more of it than disjointed images and clips plus a Wiki article.

EDIT 2: I'm done watching Neo South Island Zone and am partway into Secret Plant Zone, and I'm seeing more than just level tropes being rehashed. Seriously, it looks like chunks of level layout have been ripped from the bleeding chest of Sonic 2 and transplanted into a handheld. Can someone please explain to me how this is not a double-standard, because I'm getting more and more lost with every minute of video I watch. Even the Special Stage looks more rehashed than Sonic 4's Special Stage...

EDIT 3: Okay, the majority of Secret Plant looks like a fun layout, but apart from the boss (which I liked! ...the Patheticmobile 2.0 from Neo South Island, on the other hand, I'm pretty apathetic toward, as it's essentially just Emerald Hill's boss with less drill and more Amy Rose), but I'm still not seeing how this game's exempt from the logic regarding the levels looking and playing like old levels.

Well, off to watch Zone 3...

 

Every message you've ever posted on this forum has been invalidated in one fell swoop. As far as I'm concerned, the art direction is the very soul of the classic games, and the only reason Sega should've wanted to revisit the original trilogy to begin with. The disparity between the gameplay of the classic and modern titles is a matter of quality, not character- a contemporary Sonic game with decent physics and level design would be a good game, but it wouldn't make it a classic Sonic game. Knuckles Chaotix is essentially the inverse of this; it played nothing at all like the core franchise, but I'm certain few of us would decline to group it with the classics when the music, art direction and general atmosphere are analogous with the preceding titles.

Your statement is even more grievous when you consider that none of us would be leveling these rehash accusations to begin with if the stages weren't visual facsimiles of previous zones. With some exceptions, the original games all had stages with strikingly similar motifs and pacing, but the visuals differed radically enough to have kept them from ever feeling like a retread. Art is important.

 

Gahh fuck me.

SPA is a tribute, not a sequel.