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Sonic 1 Alt

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Ell678, Feb 23, 2010.

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  1. Ell678

    Ell678

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    Glad you enjoy it :)
     
  2. I found a bug >.>


    [​IMG]

    I fell off a crumbling platform and landed in between the spikes and the wall. It was inescapable and I just sat there for a few minutes tapping to the Marble Zone theme, trying to escape while the Catakiller laughed at me.
     
  3. Ell678

    Ell678

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    Thanks for reporting. It shall be fixed.
     
  4. Hanoch

    Hanoch

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    This is the first hack I ever used only 1 savestate. The layout is, good.
    I died so many times in MZ, and it was the first time I ever used a continue to actually play. SYZ was a bit hard, so I didn't explore it much.

    About that MZ bug: You might wanna put a invisble collision block next to those spikes, same with those green moving blocks, I got inside a wall once.
     
  5. nineko

    nineko

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    So I finally had the chance to play this.
    It wasn't half bad until I got here:
    [​IMG]

    At that point I deleted the rom.
     
  6. Ell678

    Ell678

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    It looks like GHZ Act 1, correct? I have never had that bug occur to me, what happened?

    EDIT - Sorted the issue out.
     
  7. Selbi

    Selbi

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    Isn't this like the oldest issue with the S-tunnel ever? To fix it you could simply add addition collision to the those spots to avoid getting stuck there. I got stuck at that point so many times by now, that I don't really care anymore.
     
  8. Ell678

    Ell678

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    Yes. I just fixed it doing exactly that, so if you try and jump there, you can't. Is there anything else anyone has found? It's good help to know.
     
  9. Hanoch

    Hanoch

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    Could you change the spike's behaviour? It is really annoying to get an instant death when falling on spikes.
     
  10. plushifoxed

    plushifoxed

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    <!--quoteo(post=0:date=Feb 25 2010, 12:58 PM:name=Hanoch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hanoch @ Feb 25 2010, 12:58 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could you change the spike's behaviour? It is really annoying to get an instant death when falling on spikes.[/QUOTE]<!--quoteo(post=0:date=Feb 23 2010, 10:33 AM:name=Ell678)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ell678 @ Feb 23 2010, 10:33 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spikebug NOT removed. Also a conscious decision.[/QUOTE][​IMG]
     
  11. Ell678

    Ell678

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    The reason I didn't remove the spike bug was mainly to point out that spikes mean death in this hack. If the bug was gone, there are particular areas where you could get hit, and then just run over the remaining spikes making the challenge nullified. There is a section like this in Spring Yard Act 3 that I am working on right now. Also, I can put spikes where a bottomless pit could be, to show that there is nothing down there to explore. Especially here where exploration is encouraged, loads of people would get pissed because they didn't see there is danger, throwing themselves into a bottomless pit. As I refine the difficulty even more, I don't think it will be a problem. I already know of a section in Marble Zone 1, you can get killed by the bug if a fireball hits you in a particular way. This is unfair, as the fireball is unforseeable until it rises, you hit the spikes, you die. Like I said, the more feedback I get, the more I can tweak it, and make it better.

    I'v tried to make it that where you see spikes, there is danger. Or you just shouldn't progress that way.

    Edit - Grammar.
     
  12. Aquaslash

    Aquaslash

    <The Has-been Legend> Moderator
    I...don't like it. It's not even the palettes that bother me, in fact, I appreciate the palette changes, no matter how godawful they may be. I'm more of a visual guy than anything, and nothing gives off that "new game" feeling more than an artistic overhaul. It's why even though it does have new art, Dark Fortress Zone, with it's dramatically different layouts, will never be more than a Marble Zone wannabe in my eyes because it looks too god damn much like Marble Zone.


    But anywho, I have two real problems with this. The big one was Marble Zone. It was long, and plodding, and not in a good way. The hiding of goodies was clever, I admit, but I thought it too way too long for having that slow pace. I was glad I game over'd dude to spike feature in act 3 because I just wanted to be done with it.


    The other problem I had was a personal niggle, which you did on purpose, but it's kinda irrelevant, so I'll spoiler tag it.

    + - There is only one way I will tolerate the lack of Spin Dash, and that is a character switch. I cam into the games with Sonic 2, and even after then, Spin Dash has always been one of Sonic's staple moves. If one must do the no Spin Dash route, then don't use a speed type. Use Silver, or Tikal, Sally, Bean, hell even Knuckles can do without it. Of if you must use a speed type, use Amy. But for the love of Primus, characters like Sonic, Shadow, and Blaze need Spin Dash, or their specific equivalent[/rant]  


    My suggestion is change nothing and keep on doing what you're doing. The majority of people like it, and I guess that's what counts. Call me when you have new art in and I'll be motivated to try it again.
     
  13. Ell678

    Ell678

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    Ah yes, the spindash :P I knew it would come up eventually, so I'l state my reasons.

    It is a staple of Sonic now, sure, something everybody expects him to have. But the games after the 1st had the spindash in mind - for example, Mystic Cavern in Sonic 2. There are a couple of steep ramps with not enough space to gain enough momentum...so you spindash. In Sonic 1, without the ability, you run back and run up in a similar scenario. It's more satisfying to some people when they get speed in Sonic 1, because it's harder. That's what I wanted here. The design I have been aiming for accomodates the fact spindash is not available, and if you are good, you can maintain a decent speed for a good portion of the level. I know it doesn't really make sense to the character, it's almost like taking Tails' ability to fly or Knuckles' climing but it's just something different. Every hack has it these days...and I thought I would try something different.

    I didn't feel Marble Zone was plodding or too long, but of course, I will be biased. Do others feel this way?

    Of course, it is entirely down to personal taste with things like this, but I still appreciate the feedback and your opinions :)
     
  14. Jayextee

    Jayextee

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    Don't add the spindash. Don't change the spike behaviour. This actually challenged me, in a pleasant way. 1ups were a rare treasure (and actually worth something, I spent half the time on my last life) and your platforming puzzles are excellent, often forcing a new approach to a level.

    Minor niggles include the occasionally amateurish-looking chunk placement (such as GHZ never having any "edge" chunks, meaning background walls come to a halt abruptly) and a couple of sticking points (on top of what has been shown, I got trapped inbetween lava and a falling block somewhere in MZ2, I think -- I was invincible at the time, so I had to wait for it to expire. Then my rings. Then my life) but otherwise it's great.

    I only played it once, though. I'm deleting it, and excitedly awaiting the fully finished version before I play again. :)
     
  15. RandomAvatarFan

    RandomAvatarFan

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    Wow... I truly do like the layouts here. There were parts that I felt was cheap to begin with, but then I looked at it and realized it wasn't, like the first time I got to that point in Marble Zone that Selbi got, but then I realized, it wasn't that hard anyway. There were parts that I as like "whoah, a lot of rings in weird shapes" but then I kept playing through and picking up speed and I noticed that they were perfectly placed, but I didn't realize it when I was moving at a slower speed. Full speed, and everyone of those rings just came to me. That takes a lot of time, patience, and dare I say it, skills. I loved how there were so many ways I could explore. I need to keep playing it, I know I haven't been everywhere yet. There was a point in Marble Zone that I had thought was a small area that was exactly like the original, but then I realized instead of a few ring boxes and a dead end, there was a whole different path that I had taken. I enjoyed finding the different and sometimes secret routes.

    There are points that I wish there was spin dash, but there are times I wish that in the original Sonic 1. There are times I wish the spike "bug" wasn't there, but same thing. What I might suggest is maybe a slow "dash" to allow Sonic to curl into a ball and move from a standstill, something similar to the Nick Arcade's Protoype's. There were times that I had stopped for one reason or another, and then I had troubles starting movement again. I understand it is your decision, and I'm sure you'll be able to make a great game without it.

    Now, I know I'm not great at them either, but fix those palettes! Other than that, I see promise here.
     
  16. Aquaslash

    Aquaslash

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    Yeah, and that's the kicker, I wanted to make sure I emphasized that in the comment there. I think the hack is good for what it's trying to do though. Yeah, I would say that Spin Dash to Sonic is like flying to Tails, but like we said, personal preferences.

    Keep up the good work though. :)
     
  17. Mercury

    Mercury

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    I played through it again, going through Marble and Spring Yard this time.

    I'm still impressed. I'm amazed at how the new layouts, in addition to being good in and of themselves, also feel like the zones. The way Green Hill has its upper and lower routes structured, the way Marble hides its items. They really feel like they could have been an Act 4, or a Hard Mode to the original game - they aren't jarring at all.

    They have all the right elements - challenge, fairness, surprises, flow. They also are properly built so that the player knows what's coming up, like in the originals. There's no blind drops - there's always rings or a tree or something to show that there must be ground there, and so on.

    Because these are so good, I'm really interested to know what kind of thought process led to them. Did you just throw together what you thought would be cool, or have you been meticulously studying Yasuhara's layouts, and taking notes? IOW, does making layouts like these come naturally to you or are you consciously following specific guidelines?
     
  18. Ell678

    Ell678

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    When I came to start a new layout, I'd wipe everything except the first and last chunk, so I know exactly where I start and finish. I guess I did study the layouts of Yasuhara but never in meticulous detail, I just played them to death and thought "What makes these the best?" First that came to me was the "bouncing" mechanic. I think it was a post by Tweaker, or may have been someone else (I cannot find the original topic, but it was a discussion about level design in huge depth) that explained the significance of this and it really stuck to me. I thought "There are areas where I can use this to my advantage, and I don't think it's been done before in a hack." When I decided to make Sonic 1 Alt, I read through various posts about design, and played Sonic 1 again, but looking at the design as more than just a gamer.

    Once I felt I learned the tool enough, I started on GHZ. I put things together, and as a simple test, threw 3 buzzbombers in the air, and if you hit them all, you cut a few seconds off your time as you land on the top of a loop. And it looks cool. I realised that idea works, and works well so I continued with it. Hiding things based on this opened up some good opprotunites. I mean, later on in GHZ1, if you bounce on a buzzbomber, then follow the rings down, hitting the motobug, you get propelled to a section with a free life, otherwise inaccesible.

    In a way, it does come natural to me, but I'm always thinking "Should there be a branching path here? Should I hide something nearby? Should I put a vertical climb / platforming section here?" And where I think there should be one of those things, I put it in. If it doesn't flow smoothly, or it's cheap, or just downright boring, I remove it. Of course, anything that becomes irritating or frustrating goes too. Because I enjoy playing this myself, if there is something that isn't fun, or something missing, I can alter it to change that to make it fun. When I'm working in SonED2, I try to mentally see Sonic on this layout to see if it would be fun to play. Of course it's nothing compared to playing it, but you can get a slight feel for the level. Did the different route come too early? Too hard early on? I'v tried to follow Yasuhara's example, but thrown a couple of my own ideas into the mix.
     
  19. Ell678

    Ell678

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    Sorry to double post, but a little update for those interested.

    I am making progress. All palettes have been restored, the HUD has been restored (except the Life section, will be fixed) and work on SYZ3 is close to complete. Just minor object 'pixel by pixel' changes (as you can see in the screens). Regardless, without getting ahead of myself, I think the people that like the little demo I showed will appreciate this act. Full of hidden goodies and multiple routes :) . The screenshots, are of course, very unrepresentative (as you would expect of a layout hack) but show a couple of the things that you shall see. I do not plan to make any other release until the entire thing is completed - as in, every single act is done, and the special stages too unless there is a demand for a 'True demo' (The first three zones). I feel the last release was a little poor now that I look back on it, and at the time just needed the knowledge that others believed it was salvageble. Anywho - screens of SYZ3!

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  20. Mercury

    Mercury

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    *rubs hands together in anticipation*
     
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