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In Support Of Humans

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by El Gran Gordo, Aug 13, 2009.

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  1. El Gran Gordo

    El Gran Gordo

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    El Gran Gordo here, with a topic that's not (directly, anyway) about Dr. Eggman! Actually, I've proposed a similar topic at old SSMB, but- having seen this repeatedly brought up in various topics- thought it was time to raise the issue. An issue which I'm raising in the name of humanity!

    Right, so. Humans! I think they're swell, which should come as no surprise since my favorite character is one. But a lot of Sonic fans seem to think they "don't belong" in the Sonic series. I'd like to challenge this sentiment, with my reasoning on why humans not only "belong", but are important and productive additions to the series.

    Let's dispel one big misconception first, shall we?

    "But humans never existed before Sonic Adventure!"
    One big misconception is that Sonic's planet, prior to Sonic Adventure, was supposed to be an all-animal world that was completely devoid of humans or human influence. But wait- You didn't see any NPCs back then, did you? Oh, there were modern cities to be sure, but the only characters in the classic games were the main cast- The hero (Sonic), the villain (Eggman), and often a sidekick or two.

    Think about this for a minute. Nowhere should this setup imply anything about the population of Sonic's world, much less that it's devoid of mankind and that Eggman is somehow the last man on Earth. Yet many fans cling to this notion, not bothering to worry about where Eggman came from, simply accepting him as an anomaly. Of course, when I bring up the equally-human Witchcart, who also predated Adventure... my point is also ignored. Ah well.

    My point is, however, that the absence of humans (or any background characters for that matter) in the old games didn't discredit their existence. If that logic means Eggman's the only human, then it has to also mean Sonic and his few sidekicks were the only humanized animals, resulting in a pretty empty planet as far as sentient life goes.


    Humans and their role in the series:

    But let's move on to the modern era- Sonic Adventure, with its far more fleshed out storyline and extensive dialog, took a more cinematic approach to the series. Suddenly, background characters could show up to populate the towns, and thus humans were visible en masse. I saw it as a natural expansion of the storyline to flesh out the common everyday people of the world, but many fans were shocked and appalled at these developments. But develop they did, leading us to Sonic Adventure 2...

    SA2 took things a step further by actually making humans more than mere townsfolk. Suddenly Eggman wasn't a mysterious man who came from nowhere- He was given family members, which fleshed out his (and Shadow's) backstory. GUN, in addition, debuted as a massive force that would continue to play a major role in future games. While GUN was, at this point, a faceless organization, I have to say I found Gerald and Maria extremely compelling characters- Not just for their relationship to Eggman, but for being truly interesting characters in their own right.

    I won't mince words- I thought Shadow the Hedgehog was a pretty horrible game, but the Commander was kind of cool. He had this stern, if misguided, sense of justice about him that I found genuinely endearing. GUN was painted as a pretty shady organization in SA2, so it stood to reason that gamers would suspect the Commander of being just as corrupt as the military of the past was- And at first, he seemed like he could've been! But his gradual development and sympathetic- if haphazzard- motives rounded him out as a decent character in my opinion.

    Elise sucked. Yeah, I won't even try to defend her, but I will say this- I'm tired of seeing Elise used as the posterchild for the anti-human argument. She's an isolated character, and trying to argue that one poorly-written human justifies removing them all is just ridiculous. But hey! Sonic Man was pretty cool.

    Chronicles, debatable canon aside, handled this well too. The return of the GUN Commander saw the character become a lot less stern, developing into a more sociable fellow who offers Sonic and his friends snacks at the base. ...Yeah, he doesn't do much, but I liked his role here. And Dr. Madden, one of the side quest characters, really stuck out to me too!

    Moving on, though, Unleashed did a fantastic job, I felt. Professor Pickle was an unbelievably amusing character, who fulfilled a great role as an adviser to Sonic. He was definitely subtle too, despite his personality being quite comical- He helped Sonic, but as a new character, didn't hog his spotlight or bend the story to focus on him like a certain princess did. I honestly hope we see Pickle again- It's really cool to see the heroes with a funny old scientist on their side, after all.

    You'll notice I didn't mention Erazor, Shahra, or Merlina, and that's because they aren't exactly human, despite their appearance. (At least I don't think they are- Merlina might be.) Still, I found them all to be well-written and compelling characters too, so if they help my pro-human position, so be it, I guess!

    I don't even need to elaborate on our beloved main antagonist, Dr. Eggman. The first, and most prevalent, human in the series needs no introduction. Really, neither does his psychotic double, Eggman Nega. Both of them are great examples of well-written and likable human characters who fit right into Sonic's world.


    A conclusion of sorts:
    I think the animal characters, and robot characters for that matter, are just swell. They're an important part of the series, and the fanbase gives them much love. But I think humans are underappreciated and irrationally despised by a good chunk of the fandom. It's a mentality that I'd like to see fade over time, and arguably it already is beginning to slowly subside...

    Of course, these are just my opinions. Whether you fully or partially agree, or simply disagree altogether, I'd like us to have a civilized, intellectual dialog about humanity's place in the Sonic series. Let's discuss, shall we?
     
  2. Super

    Super

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    Well, I can't find much to argue here other then trite opinions. I do like that you referenced Star Light Zone and Spring Yard Zone while never really relating to them. A lot of old school backgrounds were cities and the like.

    As for humans in general, I don't really mind them, and as far as Adventure goes, I liked the addition to just walk up to someone and talk.

    One thing I will say, however, is that I'm completely torn on the issue of using - I'll use the term Mobians to differentiate - Mobians as NPC's. It will lead to a bunch of fan character tirades, but honestly, so far Sonic Team is telling us only Sonic and friends are the only Mobians on the planet unless, surprise! New character. While I'd like to see some Joe Shmoe Mobians running about, you can see where it'd be a problem.

    That derailment out of the way, I've got nothing else to say.
     
  3. El Gran Gordo

    El Gran Gordo

    Yosh Member
    Oh, I'm not at all opposed to animal NPCs. I'd be all for including them in addition to human NPCs, as long as it's not at their expense.

    Actually, it would further solidify the idea that humans and humanized animals are societal equals, and would essentially be the death knell of the "Man vs. Animals" tone that SoA, SatAM, and similar stories fostered in regards to perceptions of the game series. To clearly show humans and humanized animals coexisting peacefully en masse, it would dispel the idea of humans as corrupt or villainous figures in the franchise as whole. While that image has already all but completely died, this move would finish it off.

    And I'd be all for that.

    The term "Mobian" kind of vexes me though, mainly for two reasons.

    1.) It doesn't really work with continuities where there's not a "Mobius" to begin with, such as the games. (Discrediting SoA's story, anyway)
    2.) In continuities where there is a Mobius with human inhabitants (AoStH, Archie, etc.), it doesn't really make sense exclusively referring to animals as Mobians. That'd be like saying only one species on Earth can be called "Earthlings", or a similar term. In these continuities, Eggman- by living on a planet called Mobius- should logically be considered a Mobian as much as any animal would. See what I'm getting at?

    Sorry for that little tangent there, I just enjoy having fun with terminology in the Sonic fandom.
     
  4. Maneo

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    To me, it had always seems obvious that there had to be humans in Sonic's world.

    The better question was "are there any other anthropomorphic animals?" Obviously, newer games seem to imply that they are definitely out there, based on the number of them popping out of nowhere, so the new question would be "just how many are there?"
     
  5. OSM

    OSM

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    Quite a lot of thought put into such a small topic.

    I've never approved of anything post Sonic Heroes, humans are one of the elements I definitely disapprove of in the games, at least the way they are portrayed in the games. Unleashed did a fine job correcting some of the things I didn't like about them, but I still really don't see a need for them to appear at all. They just seem very trivial if you ask me, but Sonic Adventure I think pulled off the humans being present very nicely. They didn't serve a major role, but they "clicked" in Sonic's world for some reason.
     
  6. Super

    Super

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    That's a debate I gave up arguing a long time ago, myself. I just used the term - as explained - to differentiate the two. Seeing how Sega or Sonic Team has yet to give us a term to differentiate the half-animals with the humans, one has to use something.

    But yeah, my reasoning isn't nearly as complex as yours. I'd just like some bloody AnthrosMobiansfurrybaits in the background to show that 'hey, they exist to' and to give the community at least one answer to the multitude of questions we have.

    But on one note, most of the time Earthlings is used, it's to talk about humans, and there are often different terms to discuss other life, such as 'lower life forms', if you go at it from a strictly sci-fi view.

    + - Hell, the best way to differentiate the two is 'Furries' and 'Meatbags'.  
     
  7. Kurosan

    Kurosan

    Samurai of Gaming Oldbie
    The problem isn't with humans existing, it's that sometimes there's too much focus on them. They're usually uninteresting, annoying, out of place, or even obvious self-insert Mary Sues.

    Case in point: Sonic the Hedgehog. That damn princess was obnoxious and made me cringe everytime she hogged the screenplay. She was like Chris, except that at least he wasn't ruining shit in our games.

    Example of it done well: Sonic Adventure 2. The only two humans who had any sort of real role were Maria and Gerald, who were actually interesting characters, didn't constantly take over the game, and even had the bonus of being relatives of Eggman, giving us more insight into the character. All the other humans were there for one simple purpose, the same one as in SA1: Giving us the impression that Sonic's Earth was full of life, just like ours, and that their lives depended on us.
     
  8. El Gran Gordo

    El Gran Gordo

    Yosh Member
    I completely agree that Elise was horrible. I even say so in my opening post here.

    And I will say that Elise failed not for her humanity, but for being a badly-written and utterly contrived character. If Elise were an animal, she'd have been just as annoying. Elise was a bad character for many reasons, but her humanity was not one of them.

    Well... Not quite. There is more to them than being the helpless, hapless masses, I feel. They bring their own unique personalities to the games, however minor they may be, such as the colorful NPCs of the recent Sonic Unleashed. While I already praised Professor Pickle for his amusing, but not overshadowing, performance, I have to give major props to the random townsfolk- While SA and 2K6 had rather plain people about, Unleashed had rather memorable citizens. Wentos the puppeteer and Pickle's befuddled assistant were two of my favorites, despite the incredibly minor presence they had in the game.

    So while they do serve as a plot incentive, as the people who Sonic must save from the current threat to the world's safety, I feel they're also legitimate and individual characters in their own right, even if they're not given the fanfare and focus of the animals most of the time. And I can appreciate their contribution to Sonic's world. Many fans overlook these characters, but I find them truly interesting!
     
  9. Phos

    Phos

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    Just because it's a city doesn't mean it was built by humans. A human has never been depicted as being able to take advantage of the prevalent curved surfaces in Sonic's world. Considering that these are apparently common in nature as well, it brings up the question of how humans came to exist on this planet when they are so unsuited to the terrain. Various media at the time suggests that Sonic took place in the future long after some sort of upheavel curtailed the affairs of Man, and that they live mostly seperate from creatures such as Sonic, sticking to the parts of the planet that still suit them. This is mostly based on the OVA, though the comic suggests that Mobius is earth in the distant future as well. Well, according to GameTap, Oshima was a super hero fan, and that really sounds like a silver age storyline to me. For some reason, I just realized that a modern day Jetsons revival would probably be a whole lot like Rachet & Clank.

    But that seems a tad too bleak to me, and it really seems like I'm filling in the blanks without enough guidance, and that the developers didn't really have anything in particular in mind. If Sega wants to keep putting human NPC's into Sonic games, they need to realize that talking to them tends to be boring most of the time, and that most players will probably resent being forced to converse very much. They also need to create a style that actually fits next to Sonic. For SU, they just ripped off Pixar and called it good, only with a bit of that Japanese racism that they don't even seem to realize they make. They did better at fitting next to Sonic compared to the humans in 06, but they're still pretty far off the mark. Even the NXE Avatars come closer.
     
  10. El Gran Gordo

    El Gran Gordo

    Yosh Member
    I admit that aesthetically, the physical appearance of the human characters could have been- and arguably has been- better. I loved how vibrant and colorful their personalities were, however, and feel this is a step in the right direction in terms of characterization.

    Speaking strictly of physical appearance, I really liked the anime-style humans of Sonic Adventure. Trying that again with today's graphics could look pretty cool. It also gives Eggman a contrast- In a world of mostly realistically-proportioned people, Eggman alone has wacky cartoon proportions that make him stand out among his fellow man. It emphasizes his eccentricity, or something.
     
  11. Phos

    Phos

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    When I try and think of the personallity of one of the average humans in Sonic Unleashed, the only thing that pops into my head is Pickle's speach where they tried to attach a moral to the story at the last moment. That, and the sound that speech bubbles made. They seemed pretty trite to me.
     
  12. The Shad

    The Shad

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    I was ready to come in here and bust heads for someone saying humans shouldn't exist in the Sonic World (even though your main villain is a human) but I don't see any of that.
     
  13. Ritz

    Ritz

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    The problem with humans outside of the core cast of characters is that they're all categorically generic; they clash when paired up with waist-high colorful anthropomorphic animals, and only contribute to the gradual degradation of the series' aesthetic and atmosphere as the games strive ever vigilantly towards realism. Unleashed managed to subvert this with its stylized NPCs, but unless we wind up getting a direct sequel to that, I wouldn't expect to see that sort of thing again. Beyond NPCs, Eggman is acceptable because he's a cartoon, a caricature of a human. He fits like a glove. Gerald and Maria, while arguably decent characters in their own right, are both visually unremarkable. Elise was an obvious mistake, and the GUN Commander wasn't simply an abortion, he was afterbirth.

    But then, we can't have animals running around either, because that'd be completely retarded, for previously established reasons. It worked remarkably well for the cartoons and comics, but it just isn't going to fly in a proper game, not today, and certainly not with Sonic Team at the helm. The only real solution here is to do away with NPCs in general. What's the sense in dumping all these characters meant to supplement a story into a franchise that has no business enacting a story with anything more sophisticated than gestures to begin with? If Sonic Team trimmed the fat and stopped funneling embarrassing, insipid tripe into their games to pad the length, they might actually have the time and budget to give us more than half a good game for once, if that.
     
  14. ICEknight

    ICEknight

    Researcher Researcher
    Agreed. I'm thinking Sonic Team might have had in mind that all the cities and other stuff was made by humans all along, even if they're nowhere to be seen in the games. After all, they never implied Eggman was the only human in that world... and Sonic's girlfriend almost turned out to be Madonna.



    Also, anime chicks:
    [​IMG]
    =P
     
  15. El Gran Gordo

    El Gran Gordo

    Yosh Member
    Well, those are just normal animals. The kind that aren't also people.

    The sentience of these animals seems... inconsistent. In the modern games, they act like typical animals, and cannot speak, nor do they display any characteristics of humanization. However, the Flickies do talk in Sonic 3D Blast, thanking Sonic for saving them during the ending. I must question, though, why they haven't been given such ability to converse in any previous or subsequent games, though I'm willing to accept 3D Blast's display of dialog as applicable to all of them. It's an anomaly, but it happened, and can thusly be considered canonical evidence of their intelligence.

    However, whether or not these animals were intended to be given this minor speaking part as far back as their conception in Sonic 1 is undetermined. They're described as "Sonic's friends", which I suppose does hint at sentience above what we would typically consider an ordinary animal. These animals are so vague, and could do with some clarification, I say.

    Okay, fine, though- They were indeed NPCs by their definition. But humans could have still logically existed, even with these.

    EDIT: This kind of creates a conundrum, now that recent games (Chronicles, Black Knight) have adapted the cartoon and comic concept of Sonic liking chilidogs. If all animals in the Sonic universe, humanized or not, can be considered to have intelligence comparable to humans... Then Sonic eating meat just became a whole lot more disturbing. Hm.
     
  16. Ritz

    Ritz

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    Sonic the Screen Saver will have you know that these animals are capable of driving, camping and space travel. Also, they all have lines of dialogue in Sonic Gameworld.
     
  17. El Gran Gordo

    El Gran Gordo

    Yosh Member
    Ah, thank you for pointing that out. I'm rather fully convinced in that case.

    So, perhaps it's best to assume there are three "types" of animals in Sonic's world?

    - Humanized bipedal animals, such as Sonic.
    - "Small animals", the types Eggman frequently uses to power his Badniks. "Human" personality and speech, much like the fully humanized class has.
    - "Normal" animals, such as the wild boars and armadillos in Sonic Chronicles. Can probably be assumed to be as intelligent as real-life animals of their appropriate species.

    I suppose this makes sense.
     
  18. Ritz

    Ritz

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    Why are we even entertaining the thought of Chronicles being canon?
     
  19. El Gran Gordo

    El Gran Gordo

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    A good point, but it was the only game I could think of with ordinary, non-sentient animals. And I'd like to think they exist, for the reasoning I expressed earlier; The idea of Sonic (or anyone) eating meat if all animals possess human intelligence is a bit of a grim prospect.

    Uh... Secret Rings had dinosaurs! Which were probably unintelligent beasts. There we go, a non-Chronicles example of an ordinary animal.

    Oh right, Sonic Heroes had a giant alligator.

    I'm not sure if Froggy counts as a "small animal" or a normal animal. He never speaks, but y'know, neither do the other small animals in Sonic Adventure. Him appearing in the same kind of green bubble that the other small animals do in Gamma's second mission is probably one reason I'm considering he might qualify as that. Ah well.
     
  20. test-object

    test-object

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    I absolutely loved the characters in Sonic Unleashed for 1 reason only. They weren't anime nor as real as possible. Something which proved not to work in Adventure and Sonic '06.

    God knows I hate that Mr Know-it-all in Station Square. So much.
     
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