Game Concepts

Vaiz · Dec 4, 2008

In a related topic, IGN has posted a 'How to fix Sonic' article on site. I would say suspiciously soon after our own creating one such topic but, with Unleashed out, it was inevitable. They're always doing this wish list type thing.

PS: I encourage you to not take this article too seriously. In fact, I found myself incapable of doing so.

'Fixing' Sonic

In example:

What I propose would be this: In addition to 2D segments like those found in Sonic Unleashed, there would be seamless first-person perspective segments. The track/level would then be divided into X number of lanes that I could move into by simply tapping the control pad left or right, with double-taps letting me move two at a time.

...

Get enough coins, and Sonic will morph into Super Sonic
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I automatically scorn this article for calling rings 'coins', and neglecting the chaos emerald factor in super sonic >=[ /elitist.

muteKi · Dec 4, 2008

Clearly whoever wrote this never got past Labyrinth Zone in Sonic 1, Aquatic Ruin in Sonic 2, or the infamous Carnival Night Act 2 barrier.

Thank god some people still realize a Sonic game shouldn't be all about speed.

Rokkan · Dec 4, 2008

muteKi said:

Clearly whoever wrote this never got past Labyrinth Zone in Sonic 1, Aquatic Ruin in Sonic 2, or the infamous Carnival Night Act 2 barrier.

Thank god some people still realize a Sonic game shouldn't be all about speed.
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Well, he did emphasize that Sonic is not only about speed. He said that there would be three different paths: "Combat" path, "Platforming" path and "Speed" path. Although I heavily disagree with dividing a zone like this. All three elements must be connected together and not be separated in paths like this. Also what the critics don't get is that Hub Worlds can be really fun, hello Sonic Jam!

The Segan · Dec 4, 2008

The article is completely idiotic and fails to properly explain why the games have almost completely failed, I wrote in the comments:

Holy Christ man, I know that all of the recent games (including Unleashed) have totally sucked, but ideas like this will ensure that Sega never gets it right.

The gameplay was never about speed, at least when it was good, it was about gaining momentum without the use of shitty dash pads to overcome obstacles, a simple plot with no more than 4 characters total, creative worlds with badniks that weren't all the same, multiple routes, music that didn't completely blow (which started with the advent of pre-recorded music), no humans, communication through actions and movement as opposed to voices, and leaving it to the player's imagination fill in the fucking rest.

Unfortunately, Sega fired all of the people that knew this and picked up people who don't give a damn and have no idea how to make a bloody video game.
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Sik · Dec 4, 2008

Rave said:

He said that there would be three different paths: "Combat" path, "Platforming" path and "Speed" path.
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Huh, sorry, but isn't it pretty much the whole concept behind Unleashed? (except it's two paths (hedgehog and werehog) and platforming is in both... somewhat)

Then again, stop talking about it. You only give fame to him by doing this, totally accomplishing his objective. Ignore him, and he'll eventually stop

Dannyboy · Dec 4, 2008

So... if we could get back on topic..?

I have a few ideas, I'll start with the un-original idea first.

A re-release of the Genesis games, combined as one. Hrm... maybe the could use the Hedgehog engine or whatever, but make it pretty, nice orchestrated sound, and maybe some extra characters from the modern series (actually, I think Shadow is the only one that would work, really...). So, it plays the same, physics would be emulated as close to the same, and now we have Sonic's greatest marketing ploy ever. If they can show that these 2D games are feasible and fun, then maybe they can restore some of the majority's faith.

So... Sonic 1, 2, 3&K all pieced together as on big game, modernized... and maybe some downloadable content that would be new levels, or maybe even different characters, since we really want to please the masses here. I don't know about you, but controlling Super Sonic in HD across all of the levels sounds great to me.

But like I stated earlier... this is just a marketing ploy. Get the stupid critic to shut up, and still make something new, nostalgic, and fun.

I'll have my real idea later.

EDIT: This post was really just meant to get you assholes back on topic. :-P

Sonic Warrior TJ · Dec 4, 2008

I think it would be cool to have a new special stage that plays off those long running fights in Unleashed, where you're quickstepping to dodge the bombs and knocking the robots into each other. When you hit each checkpoint you'd have to have collected a certain number of rings and what not to continue/win the Chaos Emerald.

Phos · Dec 4, 2008

The Segan said:

The article is completely idiotic and fails to properly explain why the games have almost completely failed, I wrote in the comments:

Holy Christ man, I know that all of the recent games (including Unleashed) have totally sucked, but ideas like this will ensure that Sega never gets it right.

The gameplay was never about speed, at least when it was good, it was about gaining momentum without the use of shitty dash pads to overcome obstacles, a simple plot with no more than 4 characters total, creative worlds with badniks that weren't all the same, multiple routes, music that didn't completely blow (which started with the advent of pre-recorded music), no humans, communication through actions and movement as opposed to voices, and leaving it to the player's imagination fill in the fucking rest.

Unfortunately, Sega fired all of the people that knew this and picked up people who don't give a damn and have no idea how to make a bloody video game.
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... If you read Gamasutra's interview with Yasuhara, you'd know the speed was there first:

How many design iterations and ideas did you go through before you came up with this?

HY: Well, in the very beginning, the project staff consisted entirely of Naka and Ohshima, back before I joined them. The main thing Naka had thought up at that time was a game engine that scrolled really, really fast -- the problem after that was to figure out what kind of game we could make with that.

We didn't have any game at that time, so we had to think about that first. I thought it'd be enough to have a game where you ran really fast, but we couldn't get anything to work. Naka was really adamant about the idea that the game should be playable with one button, since Mario needed two -- jump, and run or attack.

My response to that was that if you have only one button, then all you can do is jump, so we need to find some way the player can attack at the same time. So our character needed some way to deal damage just by jumping, and from there, we came up with the idea that he should roll himself up into a ball while in the air. I think that was how we first started off.
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The issue is that from Sonic Adventure 2 onwards, it was speed for speed's sake.

What really bugs me about IGN's article is that they seem to have the same problem (as well as a few brand new ones) as most post SA1 Sonic games: they lost the simplicity. They've just been trying to Shoehorn Sonic into the third dimension by piling on more and more mechanics, and now, with the exception of the analog clicks and the D pad, Sonic is using every button on the 360 pad.

Imagine for a moment that Sonic X was somehow created exactly like it is with the exact same audience (that is to say, whatever knowledge and opinion you have of it is the same in this hypothetical setting), but there was nothing related to Sonic created before it. This guy's idea sounds like a video game adaptation of Sonic X created in that setting. Basically, he's just spouting random gameplay ideas while giving no thought about how they would fit together.

sonicteamUSA · Dec 4, 2008

The Segan said:

Thank you for that little gem of irony, Takashi Iizuka is now the first person I would fire.
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Firing the best level designer at ST is a bad idea in my book. Though I doubt he'll do any more level designs, since Hashimoto said he's sub-general manager at ST Japan as of now. This is why I'm mad they closed down ST USA.

To ensure quality, I'd force them to make the music 16-bit, so that only then when it was actually semi-unique could they remake it with recorded instruments in a manner similar to Brawl.
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Are.......are, you being sarcastic? If you aren't, then I can't take you seriously.

No offense, but you almost sound like a plant from Sega.
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Honestly, when anyone makes fun of a member that worked at ST USA, I start to talk back.

Authur · Dec 4, 2008

muteKi said:

Clearly whoever wrote this never got past Labyrinth Zone in Sonic 1, Aquatic Ruin in Sonic 2, or the infamous Carnival Night Act 2 barrier.

Thank god some people still realize a Sonic game shouldn't be all about speed.
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What about Sandopolis Act 2's sandslides? Those things are a BITCH to fight against.

sonicteamUSA · Dec 4, 2008

Rave said:

For beggining the trainwreck that was Sonic Heroes and destroying the beautiful artpiece that Naoto made that was NiGHTS into Dreams, I wonder how the hell he's not fired yet.
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Why are you blaming Iizuka for Sonic Heroes. He's the one that wanted to end the Adventure series, and start new to broaden the fanbase. back then I didn't like this idea because I was a stupid SA2 fanboy. But, now at my age, I perfectly understand and agree with why he did this. The problem is that they had to use the renderware engine to port it on all consoles. Which decreased game quality. It's still a beautifu, well designedl game, but the gameplay I guess wasn't as fine tuned as fans hoped.

And again, I love his level design skills. The seasise hill, ocean palace, rail canyon and frog forest levels are some of the biggest, beautiful, most creative levels I've seen in a sonic game. he knows what makes an entertaining level, and how to balance it out with speed and platforming.
Also, without Iizuka, Shadow would have never came to be..........(I know that sounds fanboyish ), but I like shadow's character.

Sonic Warrior TJ · Dec 4, 2008

That still doesn't excuse how he "tried" to "refine" the original NiGHTS formula.

The Segan · Dec 4, 2008

Phos said:

... If you read Gamasutra's interview with Yasuhara, you'd know the speed was there first:
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Hey, I'm well aware that the concept of the series, as well as it's marketing point, was the speed. It's just that back then, they also knew, it pretty much went without saying, that they had to make an enjoyable gaming experience as well. Unfortunately, these unwritten rules about game design have clearly degenerated over time until what we have now which is the team actually buying into their own marketing. So instead of mixing speed with good gameplay and challenge, we're seeing mindless speed, usually mixed with something else that no one likes.

Also, without Iizuka, Shadow would have never came to be..........
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You mean the same Shadow that was still kind of a joke even in the only successful game he was in? The (ex)Sega employee who hired him must be crying in his sleep these days. When he's not offering his talents to some other company, he's probably wishing he could go back and undo it all.

FinalBeyond · Dec 4, 2008

The Segan said:

So instead of mixing speed with good gameplay and challenge, we're seeing mindless speed, usually mixed with something else that no one likes.
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The Segan said:

Then, I'd pick up the best and brightest from Dimps
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...

Something here doesn't seem to match up.

Phos · Dec 5, 2008

Yeah, it bugs me when people say Dimps should be the new Sonic Team, because they seem just as good at missing the point as anyone at Sega.

Zephyr · Dec 5, 2008

Rave said:

Zephyr, your idea is great, but it seems to be too much of an "everything" wannabe. If character selection were to be greatly reduced, the different elements and styles were cutten out; in resume, anything in excess and way too fantasied being cutted off (instead of all of the villains to gang bang the heroes, why not just a classic Sonic x Eggman kind of thing? And maybe Chaos as a cameo boss, and no weapons/vehicles) I think it could make a great game. Also, Boost and Power being the same button (while most of the Speed class has Boost, others would have special powers, like Shadow's Chaos Control) and no Quick Step or Break. Okay, Sonic Unleashed was great and all, but for the idea that you're having, speed shouldn't be as extreme. Your idea aims more for free exploring, and super speed limits that. Try being a little less exagerated and visualise this as a game; it has limitations.
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The reason it's so packed with so many complex ideas is because it is in a way supposed to double as a Sonic MMO. I imagine it working like Fable 2 in a sense, with you and multiple players being able to join each other's Adventure mode (as long as they aren't the same character) to help them out. But there would also be a different mode with a character creation screen, where you can edit their appearance, give them a name, choose their elements, style, class, and home location. They would then be dropped into their home location, free to roam the world.

The main reason I included the whole "style" thing though was because Speed, Flight, and Power don't 100% define the characters. Sonic, Amy, Metal Sonic, and Shadow are all speed, but they're still different in style. The way I'm viewing it is Sonic has more of a free-style of gameplay (whatever that's exactly supposed to mean), Amy is in a sense a Brawler with her Hammer, and Shadow is more of a "mage-like" character with all of his Chaos Powers.

The only DEFINITE things I would include would be the plot and the open world, the rest is pretty much for the MMO side. ONLY for the MMO side.

Rokkan · Dec 5, 2008

Okay, going back on topic...
I wonder how would it be a Sonic RPG that actually would maintain the speed and dynamics of a Sonic game, and not turn-based shit.
So I imagined a system similar to Tales of Symphonia, but characters' movement would be completely 2D and the terrain of battle wouldn't be flat, it would be a dynamic terrain. There would be platforms, springs, and even loops. Loopings, though, would have some sort of light posts on their beggining to "activate" the looping, because if you do not, you'll not loop the looping, you'll get through it like the looping is on a different plane than yours. When the lightpost lightens up, charge your spin-dash and go through it, by doing so, you'll not only loop through the looping but you'll also deal some serious damage on any enemy nearby the looping. Springs would not only boost you up to reach flying enemies, but you can do an attack while you boost upwards. Overworld, again, would be pretty much like Sonic Jam's Sonic World. What would be funny though, is that the bag you carry on to put your items in would be a classic-styled Monitor, strapped on Tails' back like a bag. Items would actually come in two ways: As a monitor or as a capsule. Monitors would be actually normal usable items, while Capsules are power-ups and equipment.
Gameplay itself is quite like Tales of Symphonia, mixed a bit with the fighting genre. One button would be normal attacks, like punching and kicking. By mixing combinations and variables of them, you would achieve different combos. By leveling up, you would unlock more combo variations, substitute weaker attacks by stronger ones. Another button would be for slightly different attacks; Sonic would do spin-attacks and things like spinning kicks. Tails would attack with his tails, Knuckles instead of punching would perform slashs and spinning punches. These attacks consume a little of the SP bar (which is the MP of this game) and wouldn't have many variables; however they are more powerful than normal attacks and combining them into combos is a must to perform awesome combos and finishers. Another button would perform the defense/guard. By activating it at the same time as the opponent attacks, you'll do a Perfect Guard, which greatly reduces damage. The last button would be for casting special Skills. Just like in Tales of Symphonia, you can config this button to activate different skills. Like pressing that button alone would do "x" skill, button+up "y" skill, skill button+attack button "z" skill, etc. Up would be for jumping.
Characters would be potentially different one from each other. While Sonic is crazy fast, comboist, and has few special skills (all learned by level), Tails would learn his skill by his items, having a Screwdriver and having some materials in your bag, you could create a Plasma Buster to summon in to a special skill. His weapons are tools to create weapons that he summons to special skills. Silver is an extra, secret character which has nothing to do with the story and has also a quite unique gameplay. His attacks consists mostly of one skill only, which is Telekinesis. He can use it to grab enemies and stage structures and throw around in the most perfect way. He has also more skills and attacks, but Telekinesis is the ability you'll most rely on. There are also special properties that some characters has. Like, "a", "b" and "c" characters can perform a Counter-Attack if you press the special attack button while doing a Perfect Guard, and "x","y" and "z" characters can lift and throw enemies, boxes and other structures by pressing the attack and the guard button altoghether. There would be dungeons and special zones, in which gameplay is the same as in-battle gameplay, but it would be a huge stage and not a battle arena only. Stage dynamism is actually taken to the extreme. There's a boss in which the arena bends according to what point of the arena you are (if you're on the edge, the arena will slowly bend to that edge), and the boss actually shakes the arena, causing damage to whoever does not jump and/or use a special item called Angel Ring (a winged ring that you go through like a hoop to perform more mid-air jumps) gets damaged. There are lots of items like the Angel Ring; like the Elemental Barriers, a Insta-Spring (quite like Sonic's Up+B from Super Smash Bros Brawl) and etc. Also, at the half of the game, you get all Chaos Emeralds and the ability to turn into Super Sonic in-battle. Super Sonic is like a temporary level-up to level 90. You don't get invincible, but your status are all buffed up and you gain many unique abilities. Yeah, that's pretty much it. There are lots of characters to use, some of them (like Silver) being extras. There's even a Chaotix side-quest.

Secret Bonus · Dec 5, 2008

Well, the way I see Sonic now, they make him into a sort of, extreme type of person (can't really think of any other way to say that but there you go). I'd do the classic 2D style, you know what, have what Unleashed has, 2D AND 3D action, with the classic platforming puzzles. However, I'd also have a bit of an emphasis on score. Example, doing tricks like in Sonic Rush (although they'd be more button combos than just pressing B over and over). Getting through various areas quickly would also improve your score and overall rank for the level.

Now, I admit to not really having a problem with Sonic's "friends". I also understand though, some of them might get annoying. Again, I'd do it somewhat like Unleashed. Sonic vs. Eggman, with friends helping out. I'd add in some optional bits though, for example fighting missions involving Knuckles, Sky Chase missions with Tails, and maybe a Hedgehog Hammer minigame with Amy?

For the actual levels, I'd try to have some real world levels (again, like Unleashed), with some more classic zone style levels acting as wilderness areas (Green Hill zone being a sort of hilly plain).

LordOfSquad · Dec 5, 2008

Hmm, ok. I had another idea last night, and while it isn't exactly a Sonic game, I still like the idea of it.

Super Smash Brothers: CHAOTIC CLASH

Here's the basic idea: it's a sprite based heavily-enhanced remake of Super Smash Bros 64, either released over Wiiware or just through a physical release, with a Nintendo vs Sega theme.

Characters
Nintendo Reps
Mario
Yoshi
DK
Link
Kirby
Pikachu
Fox
Samus
Luigi (unlockable)
Zelda/Shiek (unlockable)
Jigglypuff (unlockable)
Captain Falcon (unlockable)
Ness (unlockable)
Bowser (secret)
Ganondorf (secret)
Mewtwo (secret)
Marth (secret)
Ice Climbers (secret)
Mr. Game and Watch (secret)
Saki Amamiya (secret)

Sega Reps
Sonic
Shadow
Knuckles
Akira
Dynamite Headdy
Ristar
Keil Fluge
Vectorman
Tails (unlockable)
Centurion/Werewolf (unlockable)
NiGHTS (unlockable)
Segata Sanshiro (unlockable)
Rolf (unlockable)
Dr. Robotnik (secret)
Axel (secret)
Mahler (secret)
Tyris Flare (secret)
Gunstar Heroes (secret)
Alex Kidd (secret)
Epsilon Eagle (secret)

Bosses
Metal Sonic (Classic Sub-Boss when playing as a Nintendo Rep, unlockable through cheat code)
Metal Mario (Classic Sub-Boss when playing as a Sega Rep, unlockable through cheat code)
Master Hand (Classic Boss when playing as a Nintendo Rep)
Mecha Sonic (Classic Boss when playing as a Sega Rep)
Giant Robotnik (Adventure Boss when playing as a Nintendo Rep)
Giant Bowser (Adventure Boss when playing as a Sega Rep)
Mecha Koopa (Adventure Final Boss unlocked as any character under certain conditions)

Stages
Nintendo
Peach's Castle
Hyrule Castle
Dreamland
Saffron City
Yoshi's Island
Kongo Jungle
Sector Z
Brinstar
Mushroom Kingdom (unlockable)
Ganondorf's Lair (unlockable)
Victory Road (unlockable)
Fire Field (unlockable)
Saturn's Valley (unlockable)
Ice Plateau (unlockable)

Sega
Palmtree Panic
Ancient Greece
North Town
Planet Flora
Space Colony ARK
Angel Island
Yelico Valley
Terraport
Emerald Coast (unlockable)
Virtua Stadium (unlockable)
Spring Valley (unlockable)
Corja (unlockable)
Algol (unlockable)
Subterranean (unlockable)

Other
Metal Mania (unlockable)
Battlefield (unlockable)
Final Destination (unlockable)

The Segan · Dec 5, 2008

Phos said:

Yeah, it bugs me when people say Dimps should be the new Sonic Team, because they seem just as good at missing the point as anyone at Sega.
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Not quite as good letting it fly over their heads, in my opinion, at least they try to catch it. It's like choosing between a truck driver and a business intern for who will save the economy.

As I've stated before, my main point is that I believe the root of the problem is the people responsible for the games, who are largely not the same people responsible for the most successful and popular ones, and my concept would be replacing them.

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