Not directly related to the topic of the thread, but I would encourage anyone whos interested in Chaotix and hasn't already read it to take a gander at the Adventures With Chaotix thread from a couple years back, it really gives a good overview of just how strange and unfinished a game Chaotix is at its core.
...what. Chaotix was a rushed mess of a game developed by a different team entirely from Sonic CD. The implications of Metal Sonic Kai being the same or a different robot would not have been anything the dev team had time to care about, based on what we know of the game's development history.
I’m betting they put a lot of thought into the game and its story in the beginning, but had the development deadline suddenly pushed forwards to try and save the floundering 32x or other reasons. Also Rafa that’s an interesting tidbit you brought up about the Metal Sonic there. Been forever since I read the manual, need a refresher. Does it state that in the both the English and Japanese manuals?
Sonic News Network entry of the Red Metal Sonic Giant has this one point on the Trivia section: Another one of your dear retcons/revisions, it seems...
R.I.P. yep….sigh… revisions Also thanks refreshing my memory and for info mining so fast! Was driving to work and wouldn’t have had time to dig into it till evening.
You just have to change the rubber physics. Instead of that damn ring being a hindrance to your natural movement, make it an additional component to perform different movements. So the second player does not push you back against your will, unless you want it to. I guess it could something like Sonic Advance 3 or Sonic 4 ep 2.
I just want Heavy and Bomb to be real characters with something unique to offer. They still don't have to be "great" characters, but let them stand out. Make Bomb be able to Boom Boost allowing him to double jump or maybe even dash on the ground at the cost of 5 or 10 rings until he inevitably loses a life. Keep Heavy slow and slippery, but give 'em a spindash and a hover like R.O.B. in Smash Brothers.
I’d just like to point out that Sonic Mania confirms that there had previously been two models of Metal Sonic, with the Mania version being the third. During the first battle with Mania’s Metal Sonic, there are two other broken models in stasis on either side of the screen, which may be powering up the one the player battles.
The term “Kai/改” means “rebuilt” so it makes the most sense for it to refer to a new version of the base Metal Sonic (think DBZ Kai). It’s a clear retcon likely made by non-Japanese speakers.
I've been thinking a bit about how we keep the tether. Here's my proposition: 1. Standard Sonic controls (D-Pad - Move/Roll, A - Jump / Jump Ability). 2. Partner follows like Tails in 2/3K, where both characters move freely. 3. Ring tether is activated manually with one of the two actions (Pull and Hold). 3a. Pull (X) pulls the partner character to you. - You can use this to yo-yo your partner around. 3b. Hold (Y) pulls you to the partner character as they hold still (or while moving through the air). - You can use this to slingshot yourself. 4. The character using the tether is not affected by the other's physics. - To effectively fling around like clackers requires good rhythm between Pull and Hold states. 5. Call (B) to call your partner to you when out of range (without costing rings, this time). - When in range, B lets you swap characters. 6. Grab (L/R) to grab your partner or objects. Hold to grab, release + direction to throw. --------- I believe something like this would keep the player in control without much sacrificing Chaotix's unique mechanics. It's not as simple as the original control scheme was, but I think a lot of it is necessary.
Would I like a remaster of Chaotix? Yes, with Sonic and Tails as Playable characters please. Do I think it’s likely? No, I don’t think SEGA cares about the 32x that much.
Knuckles' Chaotix is a nuclear warhead without a detonator. Given a choice between a totally rebuilt Chaotix and a Mania 2 with nothing but original content, I'd choose Chaotix without hesitation. The only artists still active in the industry with the talent to make a prettier game are George Kamitani's team, and they're busy. Letting that work go to waste is criminal.
One potential workaround the level design. What if rather than changing the level layouts, they just expanded them? Like how they added new short cuts in 1 and 2 (and are allegedly doing that ten fold for Knuckles in CD). Even more so if this made character choices more strategic, like adding paths through breakable walls for Knuckles or having more high up areas for Charmy.
The problem with Chaotix isn't so much a lack of areas or paths that use the characters' fucking around, but rather that there is very little reason to fuck around at all. Positive reinforcement doesn't work because the game is a huge ass sandbox as is. It needs challenge and a proper sense of progression, not more sightseeing.
I think a deeper problem with Chaotix that even a complete remake wouldn't necessarily fix is that 5 characters is sort of too many for a Sonic game. There's a lot of ability redundancy- everyone can climb with more or less efficiency, Espio's ceiling walk is useless, Charmy's air dash is just Vector's air dash without limits. Charmy doesn't work at all for a platformer, really. So the players are just one more thing that need to be built from scratch. But can you really differentiate that many characters with unique routes without overspecializing to the point where it hardly feels like a Sonic game? You could put water in Marina Madness and give Vector the ability to swim, but that's the sort of lock-and-key design that made Wisps so boring. Truthfully, even Tails and Knuckles in S3&K might've been pushing it. There's not a lot you can do to enhance the physics-centric design we care so much about. You have to let gravity do its thing, but abilities are all about subverting gravity or negating your inertia in some unnatural way, detracting from the core appeal. I propose we ignore this because having lots of characters that do slightly different things is cool anyway.
I feel like a more clever use of obstacles and level layout could have alliviated it A LITTLE. For example it would be quite easy to obstruct Mighty and Espio's wall climb, just put something on the wall like spikes or something or have more solid ceiling areas. Charmy is admitedly a hard one to get around, though the use of more airbourne obstacles likely would have discouraged players being too reckless with him. Bumpers, ceiling spikes, flying enemies, etc. The thing with Tails and Knuckles is that their abilities were slower and left the characters vulnerable a lot of the time, there was SOME discouragement from spamming their abilities too much against the usual spin physics gameplay, especially in how the levels were designed. Fun fact: Charmy actually has a full on flying ability if you just hold his dash button and use the D Pad to control his movement. This seemed to act as a slower more careful means for him to float around, but since Charmy can dash endlessly and the level layout is pretty damn empty, it rarely requires use.
I think you'd really need to rebuild everyone's movesets, to an extent. Charmy and Vector's moves are the same, and since they fit Charmy better I'd just let him have it. Nix the ability to spam it, just have it be one shot in any direction, like Vector's, but keep the part where you can hold to fly a little bit. You guys are right that it needs a down side, however, and I'd say it's self-evident in Charmy himself: he's tiny, so a single dash isn't OP. If anything, it'd just even the playing field. For Vector, I recommend the bounce attack or something similar to Mighty's stomp-bounce from Mania (or maybe just take it outright). Bouncing works because it plays into his "tire" shape. Him being a croc means his thick skin should be able to bounce off spikes, too. There's really no need for him to climb walls, and it doesn't make much sense for him to. Maybe he can wall jump? I don't know. Espio could have a double jump/hover to make use of his tornado-shaped jumpball. I imagine you could keep his ability to walk on ceilings and walls too, granted you hold the jump button upon contact. It should probably only be temporary though, as not to break the game. And then you get to Mighty, where my most contentious take lies: just remove him. I know. But if what we've heard of Chaotix's dev means anything, Mighty was only put in because they didn't trust this game attached to Sonic's name (Sonic? Quality control? More likely than you think, I guess!). If the game was good, there's no need to have Mighty, and no need to delete Tails from the game either. For Sonic you can give him the drop dash, which in turn used against a wall could jolt you up it a little bit.
