I'm the happiest I've been about Sonic since 2011, and I was very happy back then. I don't hate Forces, don't think it's terrible, but it left me with a bizarre feeling of "I have absolutely no idea where this franchise is or where it's going." But after Frontiers, and also the movies, comics, and Prime, I'm now like "oh yeah, I know where this is going."
"X is not as good as Y so they shouldn't even try or add it/it's half-assed" is such a bad take honestly Metal Gear Rising isn't as half deep as bayonetta, doesn't mean it's bad Bayonetta doesn't have depth of Devil May Cry games, doesn't mean they are bad and not worth playing or that they can't excel in different places Batman Arkham/Spiderman don't have depth of DMC, should they abandon combat altogether? answer is obviously no, all those games will lose big part of their appeal without them Ditto with Frontiers' they actually manage to make a combat system suited for Sonic, that works, that is decent and the best Sonic managed to integrate a combat system in a way that is not intrusive, it's existence alone also contributed to make the game have the best Bosses/ Mini-bosses in any sonic game period Sure it can be improved, but so does the "great combat systems of best games" , nothing is ever perfected or reached it's best from from first iteration, or second, or 10th, always a room for more, doesn't necessarily means what came before were half-assed that shouldn't have existed, cause the actually lead for better results over time. Sorry can't agree with such reductionist takes, can only get behind them and understand them if the same series excelled at something in the past and it regressed later
Metal Gear Rising and Bayonetta may not have as much depth as other action games, but they make up for it by having traits wholly unique to those franchises; Blade Mode in MGR and Witch Time in Bayonetta offer much more variety in terms of combat than anything Sonic Frontiers has. And if you asked anyone what they thought were the best parts of Spider-Man or the Arkham games. the combat probably wouldn't be it. You wanna know the best part of Spider-Man? Just swinging around the city, transversal. The one thing Sonic Frontiers isn't all that good at. If anything is reductionist here, it's generalizing the criticisms as "Lol, you guys just hate the combat and want it gone" when no, the complaints are more along the lines of "If these games are going to make combat a general focus, then more effort should be done to actually make it feel distinct and something suited for Sonic, which it does not do in its current form" No I don't think Frontiers' combat is some unholy sin that should have never seen the light of day, but I don't really see anything good about it either; its one of the most uninspired combat systems I've played, but that doesn't mean I think its a terrible. It means if there needs to be more of an effort at actually making it feel suited for Sonic. Some of y'all need to learn how to take constructive criticism towards things that you like; its not wrong to point out the flaws in something and point out where things can be improved. And that's the keyword here. CONSTRUCTIVE
I won't touch the second part of your paragraph, however I wanted to chime in that the combat IS NOT the main focus of the game which is why it isn't as in depth and thought out as something like those games. I think that's where these complaints fall off for me. You are inherently criticizing a game that isn't trying to be a character action fighter, it just happens to inherit elements from that genre. The game first and fore most is about running around and doing menial puzzles to get things to do more things to get other things to then fight the boss. Sure there are things they could work on like making it a parry and not a guard, or speeding up some animations/make them more in character. However the expectation of getting DMC V in a Sonic The Hedgehog game is a bit silly to me when that isn't what it is. Should the game be more like Shadow of the Colossus since it has elements from that? Should it be dark and horrifying like Evangelion because of its relations? This game already feels like its almost too large for Sonic Team and having that level of high expectation, almost seemingly asking for multiple games in one, will leave you never happy with the end result.
Blade mode in MGR hardly provide any variety to the actual combat though and it's way too limited with it sometimes not even working unless you stagger or trigger a QTE event in bosses, also Cyloop is a unique trait to Frontiers that those action games don't actually have for example. Most people actually think the traversing in Frontiers is the best part though? How Sonic controls in the open zones is a major part why people enjoyed this game in the first place, not many other games allows you to be this fast in a open environment like that and this precise and sure swinging in Spiderman is good, but combat is also good and very varied with a lot of moves and gadgets that makes the fighting itself engaging, people didn't hate that -they hated stealth missions with other characters-, taking away the combat from spiderman won't make it a better game, it will make it a worse game, same for Batman Arkham games. It's not generalizing, it had actually been said here and other places, maybe not by you specifically -although looking back, you said something similar-, but there were statements that said either " it should have gone" or" it should have been even more simple" Also the combat is in fact distinct and something suited for Sonic though, it's fast, all moveset are really suited for Sonic and something he would do, a lot of thought and care went into that, even something as simple as mapping the Homing Attack to a separate button that is also used for attacking is smart and actually makes sense here unlike Unleashed, instant homing attacks without jumping like all previous games, mapping combat actions to similar buttons to what you do in platforming -stomping attack use the same button as stomp, dodging the same button as quick step etc- Perfect? nah, obviously could be better, i mean the mod that was shared is already an improvement which we pretty much all agreed it was good, some little tweaks made all the difference, but....they also worked -and released this fast- cause the base they built upon is strong in the first place There is nothing constructive about saying something shouldn't exist cause it's not as good as DMC lol , that's about as silly as claiming BOTW is bad cause combat is bad and not fleshed out like a Dark Souls game or something it's not like there aren't flaws in the game, pretty sure we talked a lot about it, but also the manner some things said here are just plain...silly, i see nothing wrong with pointing it out either
Its the exact opposite really. I think they should stop trying to be like other games and focus on a singular thing. Sonic games trying to be so many things at once is one of biggest reasons the reception and reactions tend to be so divisive and all over the place, but they keep insisting on doing it. So if they're gonna insist on doing it, I'm gonna hold them to those same standards and I see no reason not to. This is literally a problem that they themselves have created and insist on having in their games, so no I don't think they deserve a free pass just because they worked very hard. If you're the type of person who doesn't like combat in your Sonic games (of which there is no small amount) then of course you're going to want it deemphasized or removed. If I don't like something and think it drags the game down, I feel like its entirely natural to not want to see, especially if I feel like that it doesn't at all fit with the series. But that just goes back into the whole identity issues Sonic has created for itself; its trying to be so many different things at once and not doing it particularly well, or doing it just enough as to not offend anybody. Hence, every single one of these mechanics Sonic Team insist on adding can never reach their full potential, because they have to compete with the other stuff that is also in the game too.
This idea that combat isn't an important part of this game is a strange assertion to me. You kill enemies to gain skill points to make it easier to handle the guardians, who give you gears to enter cyberspace levels to collect the Emeralds that allow you to fight the titans. Kocos are found to obtain combat-benefitting upgrades, and the island mysteries provide stat-boosting seeds. Big sells combat upgrade items. The bosses are stylish alternate versions of the normal combat. Even some of the little sidequests had you fighting enemies. The game's design elements were clearly centered around combat in a lot of ways. Aside from "this thing looks cool" I disliked the guardians because they were button-mashy or had some truly-awful gimmicks/conditions. I disliked the titans, which beyond the initial shock of the premise quickly showed itself to be really boring. I disliked fighting a lot of enemies because they would put up barriers and thus necessitated either mindless ranged combat or mindless cylooping, and sometimes they'd just disrupt my camera or capture my emerald or something and create even more busywork. You can just spin for an hour until keys pop up out of the ground, and you can just tediously play a fishing minigame and cheese the game loop, but I don't think it's good for a game to have something like that either. I don't even want the combat to be super-complex, as I don't play DMC or Bayonetta and have no standards for such a thing—I just want it to at least some fun at all. I feel like people understate the presence and importance of combat in this game. It's not totally shoved down your throat like it was in Heroes or Shadow but I'd go as far as to say that Frontiers couldn't even manage to have the mindless satisfaction that came with crushing robots or blasting aliens in those games. That's my hot take.
The copium for Frontiers is absolutely insane. Did people defend Sonic 2006 this hard when it first came out? I'm actually curious because I wasn't part of the Sonic online community at that time. Frontiers is obviously better than 2006 but I'm seeing some hardcore deflections going on in the fandom that reminds me of defending a game like 2006. In this thread of course but also in the fandom at large. One of the key disingenuous copium arguments is that the combat isn't important, can technically be skipped, and so it's okay that it is fairly shallow. The combat in Frontiers is a core gameplay pillar, alongside exploration and Cyberspace. You explore to get memory tokens to advance the story, you fight enemies to gain gears. You use gears to go to Cyberspace. You go to Cyberspace to get vault keys. You use vault keys to unlock emeralds. You use emeralds to fight the final boss. All three of the core gameplay pillars are fundamental aspects of the game. You can use Big's fishing to accelerate the process and cyloop to get the odd gear, but both of these processes are designed to accelerate the process rather than outright ignore it. They are only entertaining for short durations and are not enjoyable to spend significant amount of time used to skip the entire game design. Then again, I guess it is similar to other copium arguments Sonic fans use when defending games they love. Like how it is commonplace for people to say that it's okay that several characters in Sonic Adventure have poor gameplay because you technically only need to beat the game as Sonic. Or they disingenuously claim that because Sonic has more levels than anyone else he has the biggest amount of gameplay (when he is one character of a total six). I dunno, I initially thought hardcore Frontiers fans may come to terms with how incredibly flawed Frontiers is, but if they are like a lot of Adventure fans are they may just keep deflecting valid criticism so who knows. And I love Adventure. A core gameplay pillar should be well designed. I actually respect people who think that the combat is good enough as it is. I do actually think the combat is the best pillar of the game, but that is only because I think the combat is slightly above average while the exploration is mediocre and the Cyberspace is fun in design but abysmal to actually control. Nevertheless, if you think the combat isn't up to scratch then it should be. It's a core gameplay pillar.
I dunno, personally I just like mindlessly beating shit to a pulp and looking a pretty views while exploring in this game
That's fair. I like the Dynasty Warriors series. But I also wouldn't pretend the actual combat is deep or anything and also wouldn't pretend that the game wouldn't benefit from having a better combat system. If people enjoy something that's fine, I wish they could also just accept when it is clearly very flawed and simplistic. And the irony is that the combat is probably one of the deepest aspects of Frontiers!
Something that I really like about Sonic Frontiers is that the combat is fun (fun>deep). It's more, let's say, puzzle-oriented than combo focused. It also matters which island you're on. Something about Ouranos just tells me that's the prototype that they always mention in the interviews. If I were to improve the combat system, I'd add a toggle button to the Auto Combo skill and make Quick Cyloop easier to use.
Or maybe people just like the game despite it's flaws which could easily be ironed out by a sequel with more time, a bigger budget, and a larger staff? This was really a big tech demo and it sold itself on being something worth having around for most fans. Are you really still on here complaining about not liking the game literally 3 months later? Have you not found ANYTHING else to play or watch instead?
This might be the best review of this game I've ever seen. I will always be amazed by bickuribox12's ability to simultaneously praise what something's trying to accomplish while also acknowledging its execution is flawed. It's one of the main reasons I love his content so much. And I definitely agree with his overall assessment. Frontiers is certainly flawed, almost everything it does can be done better, but dammit it's fun and is undoubtedly a step in the right direction for the franchise.
Have I entered a new reality or is this just how forum discussion happens now? If Sonic 4 released now would everyone just not say anything so not to ruin everyone's fun? Obviously not. It's okay for everyone to dunk on Sonic 4 and Forces because those games didn't appeal to their tastes. But not Frontiers because it is open 3D and has an 'effective' (to a lot of people) serious story and tone. The main reason Sonic 4 and Forces were so strongly rejected was because they were bringing Sonic into a 'bad direction'. But Frontiers must be defended to keep the direction correct. It's so weird man. I'm even trying to space out posts and only focus on constructive criticism. And I'm being fair and even handed. I acknowledge the combat is slightly above average. I'm not just hating on the game. I think more than anything I'm just very alienated by how obviously Sonic discussion and critique in the fandom is so dominated by taste. I mean the Adventure 1 defences in recent years was a precursor to it really.
I mean...yeah...people are happy with the game so they're more likely to praise it especially because it's seen as generally decent by most people. The same thing happened with Sonic Colors. Many might argue the game is just 'fine' these days but considering where the franchise was in 2010 it was a godsend so that meant it's flaws (blocky platforming, majority 2d, had a lot of padding) were more easily ignored. This was done with the hope that they'd take what they learned from Colors and improve on it. Which they did with Generations before they fell back into experimenting for the rest of the 10's (I consider Forces to be an experiment as well to see could they have their cake and eat it too by having a more serious tone and story while also making the gameplay simpler to appeal to more casuals). We're hoping for that here too. I have criticized the game for lacking a feeling of cohesion in it's design many times and I hope a sequel can correct this. It just feels like, to me, you don't like the direction of the game at all and feel it doesn't work for Sonic. Maybe I'm wrong and you do see the overall concept having potential, it just feels like the same tired points you've been making for months being refreshed over and over again.
I'm not making the same points over and over and that's what's annoying. When the game first came out, I did do several broad deep dive posts on what was wrong about Frontiers. So obviously when I did more targeted criticism in posts later I built upon those points, but I haven't been making the same points over and over since. My first substantial point was about the game's poor aesthetic. Haven't talked in detail about that point since. I then talked about the game's poor controls (especially in 2D). Haven't made that point since. I'm now talking about the concept of whether the game should flesh out its combat. Again, I won't make the point again since I've made it. People just get super defensive whenever I make any criticism, no matter how measured and balanced.
So I notice the demo is now out in my region. As someone who has fairly little gaming time at the mo, I have to ask - is the demo a fairly representative sample of the full game?
Assuming it’s just Kronos Island with a timer, yeah that’s about right. The fourth island mixes things up, but the majority of the game follows the “defeat enemies, get gears for cyberspace, play a level, get keys, unlock emerald vault” loop with a few different mini games thrown in.
Not to shift the discussion to specific people, but yea that's essentially what it boils down to. People are gonna defend what they like and trash what they don't, regardless of the merits of each. Its just how online fandoms work sadly, especially with a fandom as...."passionate" as Sonic's. So uh...yea. I said my piece about Frontiers and I'm not gonna take it back to spare some people's feelings. Its a decent enough game but falters in many areas, but is gonna get treated like some holy grail of a game because it caters to the specific tastes of parts of the fanbase.
