I went back to watch Unleashed’s cutscenes after Frontiers, and it doesn’t contradict anything. The Gaia Manuscripts tell of one time that Dark Gaia appeared thousands of years ago and the temples were used. It’s later that we learn the cycle has been going on for the planet’s while life, which means that the temples, which can harness the emeralds, have to be a newer development. The thing that bugs me a little is that the ancients bringing the seven chaos emeralds to the master emerald and presumably building the shrine (or what would later become it) seems like it’s meant to lead into Sonic Adventure’s backstory, but countless other civilizations used the chaos emeralds in between then. It’s not actually a plot hole since the emeralds just end up scattering all over the place anyway and it’s not weird for them to return to the master emerald at some point, but it would be a better connection to SA if they’d just stayed there.
Yeah other games have already established that other cultures used the emeralds before Pachacamac's era. Not really Frontiers' fault tho. I don't think I would enjoy the backstory as much if the game went "and then the Chaos Emeralds went into the Babylonians hands, then the Fourth Great Civilization, then West Side Island, then back to the Mystic Ruins." Like yeah, I know all of that, but it didn't need to be said either.
Which of these are explicitly before Pachacamac's era? Fourth Great Civilisation/Gizoid for sure, that was 4000 years ago and Pachacamac was 3000 years ago. Was a date ever put on the Babylonians? West Side Island's people had the Chaos Emeralds in the "distant past", which could very easily be after Pachacamac.
Yeah, I don't remember those civilizations getting specific dates. If I'm remembering correctly the other only ancient ruins that get dated is when Black Doom mention they transported their temple/battleships 2000 years ago before the game. Even the Fourth Great Civilization doesn't necessarily have to contradict SA. From what I understand, the Master Emerald shrine was a separate thing from the Echidna civilization. So I don't see a problem that the shrine existed during that particular civilization, is just that maybe Chaos or the barrier didn't exist yet so they had access to the emeralds. Might even help explain the Gaia temples. Every time the emeralds were needed then the emeralds were taken from the shrine and put back after their use.
I use the real world time frame for the Babylonians for my timeline doc but as for in game evidence Tails said they were from the ancient past, which is vague but it implies a much longer time ago than Pachacamac and Tikal's era to me at least. It is admittedly more so headcanon than actual canon but I would hope any future Babylonian stories also take into account real world history. As for the West Side Island stuff I also have no idea when it happens. That might not even be canon anymore. It's up to the lore team at Sega now I guess to decide.
The biggest element the Babylonians in Sonic have regarding ancient existence beyond their own name is the magic carpet, which is something the earliest example we have of is Solomon's from the Bible- which would've been a bit less than 3000 years ago. For what it's worth.
If I recall correctly, the key (cube) to the Babylon Garden requires the 7 Chaos Emeralds, but there's no other connection between the Babylonians and the emeralds. The Babylon Garden itself was their spaceship, so must predate them having access to the Chaos Emeralds. The key also reacts to and activates the magic carpet. The chest with the magic carpet has a message from Stolen, the 13th leader of the Babylon Rogues, describing the carpet as a ground-breaking new invention (Tails and Wave notice that it's made from the same material as Extreme Gears, and is likely a prototype). So the Babylon Rogues were around for a long time before they even invented the magic carpet. They could have come to Earth long before Pachacamac's era, but not had access to the Chaos Emeralds until after Pachacamac's demise. It's also possible that they never had access to the Chaos Emeralds, but Eggman knew that the key would need a big energy source to revive the Babylon Garden.
(4:30) Raphael C. - Metal Sonic was left defeated in Little Planet in Sonic 4. Was this a consequence of the events of Sonic Mania? Ian Flynn - That is to be determined. I don't know, there's a lot of questions that should be answered at some point. All we know for sure is that somewhere in the classic era Metal Sonic was left beat up on Little Planet. (6:14) NintenDweeb - Is Sonic being born on Christmas Island still canon? Ian Flynn - I don't think so no. (9:32) Orange Blues - Is it official that the Sonic robot in a tube in SA1 is Mecha Sonic? Ian Flynn - Yes. Mecha Sonic version 3 specifically. (17:21) Levi C. (I wonder who this could be) - Since Classic Sonic is from the past, does that mean Sonic remembers meeting Shadow in Generations and Forces during SA2? Ian Flynn - hmm hmm hmm hmm... Kyle - Don't think about it too hard... A long pause from Ian Ian Flynn - I mean who knows how much time passed between classic and modern, maybe he wasn't paying attention.
Classic Sonic doesn’t really interact with Shadow much in Generations or Forces, Shadow at most says one line to classic per game (and Generations he says “you got this Sonic” he might have been talking to Modern), Classic Eggman acknowledges that he doesn’t know Shadow though but Modern Eggman says they're insignificant (Shadow and Rouge). Most of the time he’s talking to iterations of Tails. I’d believe he just wasn’t paying attention lol
Indeed. The most conversation Classic Sonic gets in Sonic Generations are general well wishes from people a fair distance away or, if he freed them, characters he has no fights with prior to the game, with Rouge being the closest to an enemy during the events of Sonic Adventure 2, yet the two never actually meet until the Last Story, and Blaze picking a fight during Sonic Rush before calming down. Considering Modern Sonic's acts are "Act 2", one can assume Modern Sonic is the one freeing them canonically. As for Sonic Forces, outside of my preferred headcanon of that Sonic being a Phantom Sonic thus nothing goes back in time, Classic Sonic is brought to the Resistance with the news of something happening in three days: could be everyone was being sent out left right and centre in preparation for said event, so Classic Sonic might not have had time to notice who was among them, while again being surrounded by friendlies (Silver is at the back during his induction into the Resistance, and Shadow joins up afterwards).
It's Doctor Who rules. You can interact with past versions of yourself all the time, but the nature of time travel is that it's hard to remember stuff. After all, most of the cast has already forgotten 06
The rules are weird but the most consistent aspect appears to be that the memories of the event stick with the most recent incarnation involved. Which is also why... Spoiler: Spoilers for Doctor Who Anniversary Stuffs The War Doctor doesn't remember the events of the specials and 11 (/13/Matt Smith) fails to remember he'll survive Trenzalore, since The Curator was there.
So... Spoiler: Sonic Frontiers Story Spoilers Was the Babylon Garden also brought to the Earth due to the Master Emerald, like the Ancient's ships? Seems like the same story happened there: the alien species were passing by and suddenly got drawn to Earth with their engines malfunctioning...
https://twitter.com/persontheperso2/status/1597680506392702977 Frontiers spoilers, but According to Ian Flynn, IDW is canon to the main series and takes place some time before Frontiers. For now at least, as long as any contradictions aren't introduced in the next game. This is a massive win in my book, I'm glad to see we finally have supplementary material to the games that isn't just in an alternate universe.
Spoiler: Sonic Frontiers Story Spoilers It's specifically stated in Frontiers that the Chaos Emeralds aboard the Anchients' ships were reacting to the Master Emerald. They just happened to be tied into the engines of their ships (I guess only 7 of them and the rest followed behind?). The Babylonians didn't have the Chaos Emeralds and thus wouldn't be affected the same way. It's possible the garden was attracted to the emeralds since there does seem to be some sort of connection with them, but that's just supposition.
Spoiler: Sonic Frontiers Story Spoilers Indeed, but as far as we know, they (the Chaos Emerald and Master Emerald) don't have any other relation, though I'd personally say they're all still part of a set and the Master Emerald simply called them back once close enough. I'm wondering if the Ark of the Cosmos were similarly affected by the Master Emerald and drawn in. I'm now envisioning Earth being treated as this kind of magnetic iceburg for starships. Anything goes near the planet with some sort of mystical device for a power source and all of a sudden it gets dragged into the planet.
I don't think Ian is allowed to say anything on the matter that hasn't already been put out there, he answered this question without making any declarative statements. Instead he went with "Iizuka publicly said ___" and "I would not argue against it [someone saying IDW is canon]". But yeah, it doesn't take too much reading between to lines to figure out what the stance on it is. The real question is how much from the comics will feed back into the games?
