This is cute considering the game that served as the basis for the cyberspace gameplay, you had to improve your speed in that game but the stages were actually engaging to speedrun which we unfortunately haven’t seen so far from the Sonic Forces: The Lost Levels half of Frontiers.
Switch impressions. Interestingly he says the game seems to hover at or around 60FPS, which is suprising.
I'm not buying that until I see a frame counter. The difference between 30 and 60 seems to have blurred for me as I've gotten older (maybe I'm just used to the majority of the Switch's library running at 30FPS) and I'm sure I'm not the only one who can be mistaken in judging such a thing. If it is true though, then that's fantastic. Muddy as the Switch version looks, if that's the price of 60FPs, then I'll gladly pay it.
So are you saying there aren't hardcore fans and more laidback casual fans of the franchise? That's objectively untrue. And also completely different points and arguments at that which have no relation to what I said because they're wholly different aspects of the game. I'm fairly sure a lot of people complain about how jank Sonic played in 4, but given the fact that the game got several 7/8 out of 10 review scores at the time it wasn't enough that people didn't like the game. Pontaff's Forces script got memed to heck and back so I know casuals or non Sonic fans heard of it. That's not even the same subject. And Sonic's friends were something reviewers complained about constantly in the early 2000's, please don't post revisionist history. I know Sonic's friends are popular in general, SEGA wanted to appeal to the critics by downplaying them but, as you see, fan outcry got them back into the series front and center. I fail to see how any of the things you mentioned have anything to do with them reusing level design from a 10 year old game. I can easily remember if a game ran like Sonic 4, if characters I liked went missing, and if the dialogue for a game wasn't the greatest, but I think I'd find a lot less people who can recognize layouts of levels they haven't touched in TEN YEARS. Everything you said was false equivalency. It's a wide criticism because people are talking about it and people like to accumulate the negative. My brother hasn't played a Sonic game in 5 years and heard about it and when I asked him does he even remember the levels in Gens he said "Well it's still just Sonic Team being lazy" which didn't answer my question, isn't what's happening (they literally only have a team of 60 people for this game, I don't think they have the resources for fully 50 original cyberspace levels), and probably speaks to more people than just him. I didn't use BOTW to say it's okay to do this, I love BOTW but my point was if people like the game 'asset reuse' will not be used against it as a negative if more of the game is original than it isn't. I loved exploring BOTW's world and treated the shrines as more of a necessary evil for upgrades so seeing them reused didn't bother me, nor has it stopped me from replaying the game over and over. I guess I can summarize everything I said into this single question. Are you really saying to me casual fans will remember and notice level design reuse from a game that is 10 years old, not available on any modern console (except PC and Xbox through BC), and sold 3 million copies when there's a high chance, if this game is good, it will sell a lot more than that?
Yeah, level asset re-usage is a major Mario/Zelda staple, frankly. And everyone here knows how big those 2 IPs are. What I liked about Sonic games was how often they did not do it. The unique, imaginite Miyazaki inspired anime landscapes and art was always why I loved and preferred Sonic, especially in the classic days. I also loved it in Generations, but that's because it translated classic stages into 3D like I'd always kind of wanted. This is different when it became so frequently used that even Mania resorted to it (albeit in a very high quality way). I still don't like it, but I can see why it may actually not bother other players, especially in Japan. And at the end of the day if the challenge stages are fun to play and feel rewarding (something I'm also quite skeptical about), I can see it working. And furthermore, not holding back the game from being successful. But I still don't like it.
I really don't get why people go on about Sonic reusing assets and characters from previous games, but I never see the same issue's expressed with other IP, that do the same. Overlooking Mario and Zelda, last week alone we saw the likes of SEGA look to milk the Yakuza/Like a Dragon IP yet again and no doubt will look to use old assets and characters again and no doubt we'll be walking the streets of Kamurocho yet gain in part 8, but hey that's ok, just not when you're the Sonic Team It's not like Sonic Frontiers looks like your typical modern Sonic game for the main sections with enemies that look like something from Alien and the game world that looks like its from SONY's ICO/SOTC.
I feel like we’ve been having the same conversation for dozens of pages regarding the cyberspace stage assets. From Sonic 1 to Colors the mainline games rarely reused locations. Sure they often reused tropes, but we didn’t literally have green hill zone every game. I also can’t think of any instance of level design being reused other than the bonus stage in SA2 (which was the only time GHZ reappeared in a mainline game during this time period.) Things changed from Generations onward. In Generations levels were brought back but entirely new assets and level designs were created. These assets have been consistently used since Generations. This is in line with other platformer series so this is not an issue to some people. To others it is antithetical to Sonic’s identity. It is valid to have an issue with asset reuse It is valid to not have an issue with the asset reuse It is valid to be somewhere in the middle I’m personally not thrilled about the asset reuse however I understand that this was an extremely small team for an open world-type game. If you agree with me, great. If not, also great.
There's only 3 certainties in life, death, taxes, and that the cyberspace reuse argument will never end
I realize that I'm throwing fuel on the fire of a topic that I'd rather see conclude as soon as possible, but I'm currently motivated to weigh in before it does. Everyone has a right to form their own opinion and for it to be granted at least a sliver of respect no matter how much you may disagree or find incomprehensible. Personally, I don't find it valid to fault asset re-appropriation outside of fringe cases that outright rely on it. If the team is satisfied with existing assets they previously labored over, then why should they not milk them for all they're worth? I do agree with everyone opposed to the lazy approach of simply copy-pasting full level layouts, but am okay with those layouts being tweaked to whatever extent for a new entry. I would prefer entire new zones, or minimally completely fresh layouts utilizing pre-existing assets and themes, but Frontiers appears to succumb to neither for the main game. Instead, based on all info and footage officially and unofficially available, it looks like Sonic Team concentrated on actually refining and evolving the mechanics fans and casuals alike have bitched about for over a decade. They've even received unprecedented praise for it. If you don't care for recycled, whether modified or not, stages, then don't engage in the optional boost-like cyberspace bonus zones... just don't hold that disapproval of an auxiliary mode against the game as a whole.
While I have made peace with the cyberspace levels at this point, I think the overriding feeling as far as negative perceptions go is that Sonic has been banking on nostalgia for around 12 years now. Sonic 4 gave us pastiches of Green Hill, Casino Night, Labyrinth and Metropolis, Sonic Generations is of course Sonic Generations, Lost World, when not aping Mario aesthetics, is aping Mega Drive aesthetics for the majority of the game with a smattering of novel locales and Forces also leans on Green Hill and Chemical Plant. I know people like to bring up Whispy Woods in Kirby as a counterpoint to this quite frequently, but they were doing new things with Whispy from the third game in the series, not to mention he's been a recurring element since the start of the series, with almost every first boss of a mainline Kirby game either being him or a riff on him. Meanwhile, these Sonic zones and bosses like the Egg Dragon were never more than one off elements until the 2010s. Sure, Green Hill and Casino Night have had many successors over the years, but until Sonic 4, they were never just those Zones redone. They always had some quirk in their aesthetic or gimmicks that marked them out as something new. With Frontiers, it certainly feels like they're doubling down on that now they're throwing chunks of previous level design into the mix. Honestly, it'd be cute and like well appreciated by nutters like us if not the fact it's a symptom of the same problem we've been seeing for over a decade now, that being that Sonic Team, for whatever reason (be that within their control or otherwise), are unwilling or unable to give us a game that stands on its own as being wholly original and that doesn't coast on things that came before. Granted, Frontiers looks to be the closest to that ideal and I think it's important to note that, yes, the cyberspace levels are, in a manner of speaking, divorced from the core gameplay setting to the point of potentially being entirely optional. Outside the context of the past 12 years, I think that works. Unfortunately, that context isn't so easily removed and so cyberspace comes with the baggage and stigma of what reusage has meant for this series in recent years.
Key difference with Frontiers versus say Forces is that nothing from the main game indicates a reliance on nostalgia.
Honestly, I don't follow. I don't see much difference between this and Forces or Generations. Of course, Generations has the benefit of being a title that completely set the expectations of what its content was and released much sooner in the current nostalgia cycle. God, it sure is something to realise that this series has now been reusing locales for a third of its lifetime.
Reliance feels like a broad statement to make with this. Forces didn't advertise itself on nostalgia, and while it does use past zones, they were with mostly new assets besides Chemical Plant's obviousness, the big push for that game was the new threat of Infinite; Classic Sonic was so.. barren that I can't even call him a reliance on nostalgia. He just exists as an excuse to tie Mania into it. Frontiers doesn't push that in its marketing either, focusing heavily on the new, original content and ideas, but it's much more flagrant to actual Sonic fans about it when you really are just jumping from "ambitious if precisely inspired open-zone exploration to a side mode that is more blatant in stage recreations half the time than anything Sonic Simulator in Colors invoked".
https://twitter.com/Sonic_Frontier/status/1571818677070139393?s=20&t=pV2wOUsAab2C6tqlQ8wXng Specs are out. As I suspected, Switch is 30FPS. Hopefully that's rock solid in terms of consistency. Breath of the Wild could get away with dipping for the most part but Frontiers is going to be a much faster paced game so I do not want to see any chugging here.
Wow, if I’m reading this right then 4K on the PS5 is ALSO 30 fps. Maybe the game was built and optimized for 30 fps, so it won’t be noticeable? This is just a possibility, and potentially wishful thinking. Then again this fella who played the switch version said the framerate felt like it was around 60. Regardless this is still better than a cloud version for switch… that said since switch is currently my only option this is another reason why, despite my increasing optimism, this will not be a day one purchase.
Reminder that the audio is not direct feed and is just an enhanced version of the audio from the Gamescom captured. Eager to get to EGX this weekend and find out for myself how Sonic really sounds.
