don't click here

The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by dredd, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    The issue with Chaos Emeralds is they're both a game element and a lore element, so, when they mess up with the jewels that gives headaches to canon. Had they said "Well, Emeralds are a limited and valuable resource, but they're not unique by any means", they could have messed with them without harming the canon. Add to that how ridiculous is they had to find them in hard to enter pocket dimensions and lost islands, then Adventure games come and Tails wins one like he got a greetings souvenir, or Knuckles breaking the Master Emerald because Robotnik can visit Angel Island on his evening walk and try to take it.

    In terms of jewel shapes, I liked that Chaos Emeralds were so chaotic they shapeshifted from one dimension to another or from time to time, just like what happens with their colours, which leads to the fact Hyper Sonic looked like a more proper transformation thanks to sharing this effect instead of just being a saiyan.

    I think the Angel Island episode stabilized them in a shape similar to the Master Emerald that influenced them. I'd pretty much say that, the Chaos Emeralds went super like it was a cocoon, then left their casks and were not so powerful but still better than before. The Master Emerald made them really powerful while they were stabilizing in those cocoons, but made the Master use so much power and endure so much stress, the extra empowerment ended as soon as it wasn't necessary.

    It's either a case of "great minds think alike" or such an obvious parallelism to do neither of us has any merit in coming up with that idea. I'd say the second because it was a random funny thought on my part, but then I'd wonder how many people would have thought the same and stayed silent trying to forget it with embarrassment.
     
  2. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,645
    771
    93
    England
    Complaining
    Well it can't be the first, I've not got a great mind, so second it is. :eng99:

    Eh, I'm not really embarrassed. I thought it was a logical progression system:
    Chaos Drive shard > Chao Emerald > Chaos Emeralds > Super Emeralds > Master Emerald.

    This was before I learned Gerald made the Chaos Drives, of course.
     
  3. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    2,347
    957
    93
    Speaking of the emeralds, is the whole thing about them having positive and negative energy canon? AFAIK it was only mentioned in SA1, and even then only in the dub, making it a mistranslation.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  4. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,645
    771
    93
    England
    Complaining
    Honestly, we can't say. They're throwing a lot of canon in the air at the moment, so we've got no real basis for anything.

    And yes, I expect them to mess with the Adventure Era. I should remind people that it was once thought that Sonic X was canon due to that bible leak, and that would remove Sonic Heroes from the canon since Shadow was discovered during the Metarex saga...

    Was that leak ever substantiated? I know it revealed the Two Worlds Theory when it was unclear, before Iizuka clarified it was canon, and then now it's now. (Canon, yey)
     
  5. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    I didn't know this was a mistranslation. I confess it never made much sense to me.
     
  6. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,645
    771
    93
    England
    Complaining
    Yeah, Tails just says Chaos drew out the power with anger and sadness, while Sonic's caring nature and being cared for in turn can also draw out the power. Essentially, the energy itself is neutral, the access methods are not.

    11:26


    I'm honestly tempted to do a fan graphic novel of the series just to use Windii's translations to clear up some dub-induced plotholes (as well as try and BS out some plotholes)...
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  7. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    2,347
    957
    93
    Yeah, that scene seemed to be a follow-up to the "Chaos is power, enriched by the heart" mantra. Basically the emeralds can give you power and energy, but how that power materializes depends on you and your emotions. Since Sonic and his friends used their positive feelings toward each other to draw out their energy, Sonic gained the power to protect everyone and "cleanse" Chaos of his rage and sorrow.
     
  8. Are there still any places to find that covered the leak, and what was in it? I can't even remember when that was now and it certainly piques my curiosity.
     
  9. Starduster

    Starduster

    Can bench press at least two Sonic the Hedgehogs Member
    1,985
    1,203
    93
    Britain
    Fighting my procrastination addiction
    I think surely there’s gotta be something to the idea that they have two types of energy, given the emeralds were clearly affected by Chaos’ use of them and yet there was still something there for Sonic to draw on when he went Super. However, we then have the inconsistency of Sonic Unleashed, which shows the emeralds in a similar state, except they seem to be completely drained with nothing left in them.
     
  10. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    I guess you could argue that the presence of Dark Gaia around the planet prevented Sonic to restore the Chaos Emeralds by himself (by the power of his heart), and then only the Gaia Temples could do the job. How does that work, I don't know.
     
  11. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,645
    771
    93
    England
    Complaining
    So I was going through the games, looking at abilities I might want to incorporate into an engine for a project, and something occurred to me that will probably just be chalked up to "gameplay", but where does the Spindash come from in-universe?

    One would think Sonic, since he's the first one we see using it: Knuckles knows it after isolation all his life, but since the first time we see him use the Spindash is during his fight with Sonic one could conceivably think that he learned it from watching Sonic. Assuming not, though, and Knuckles knows the technique in isolation.

    Then to add further confusion, Shadow also knows it and can not be excused as having watched someone do it, as he can do it right off the bat after being frozen for 50 years. So he most likely knew the move before then...

    I can't assume it's a natural ability: Tails can do it, but Amy couldn't until she learned. But then Cream also knows it...

    Just a curious thought I've had.
     
  12. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    2,347
    957
    93
    I'd assume it's a natural ability for spiny species like hedgehogs and echidnas, while Tails learned it from Sonic. As for Cream... who knows. She knew about Sonic before even meeting him thanks to his fame, so maybe she was inspired by him into learning it? Although I dunno why she would do that, what with her being a pacifist and supposedly leading a normal 6 year old's life. She wouldn't have needed to do any fighting prior to Advance 2.

    The wallpaper cover stories showed that she actually likes to hang out with Sonic and join him in adventures. So maybe before meeting him, she dreamed of becoming his sidekick like Tails and learned the move in preparation?
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2022
  13. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,645
    771
    93
    England
    Complaining
    Amy, being a hedgehog, disagrees with this notion.
     
  14. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    2,347
    957
    93
    Natural ability doesn't mean it's something anyone can just use in an effective manner without practice. Amy isn't as fighting-oriented as the others. I'd think she can naturally do moves involving spinning, but in her early appearances they wouldn't be very effective and useful, what with her never using them. In Advance 1 she can curl up into a ball in special sections, but it's implied to be a gimpy and awkward spin attack compared to the others', with a weird sound effect.
     
  15. Zephyr

    Zephyr

    Member
    3,501
    459
    63
    US
    Stepping out-of-universe here, for a moment, let's think about it like this. When developing Sonic 1, they eventually settled on the somersault attack, the ability to curl into a ball. From there, the idea of Sonic either becoming a hedgehog or an armadillo came about, because these are animals known to curl up. So, yeah, it's a natural ability. That's why Sonic's a hedgehog, and not, say, a rabbit. Because this is a thing hedgehogs actually do. Thus, Amy not having the ability to roll initially is more an aberration than anything else.

    The spin dash is more or less rolling really quickly in place, before letting yourself go. Sonic can go really fast. So, I would say that the spin dash is just Sonic combining his unique (?) ability for going fast with his natural ability to curl into a ball. He ball, he fast, so it make sense that he ball fast. The same would be true for Shadow, and I guess Knuckles (though it's not exactly clear why Knuckles is comparably fast, or if Shadow would be comparably fast without his air shoes).

    Now, Tails and Cream being able to do it? Or any other character becoming a ball when they jump, like Ray, or everyone in Heroes? I got nothing. That's all more than likely 'just gameplay'.
     
  16. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    Add to that the spindash is a form of attacking, which makes more sense if you're spined or shelled but makes no sense at all if you're fluffy. And then you have Espio swirling, which is cool but, being a horned chameleon, would make more sense for him to use the standard spin and Knuckles could have been better at spinning on his pointy nose and breaking things with his actual knuckles.

    May I help with that part of the design? I have stuff planned already.
     
  17. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,645
    771
    93
    England
    Complaining
    Sure, it would be good to get someone to bounce ideas off as as well. We should probably move to DMs, if that's alright with you?
     
  18. Levi Church

    Levi Church

    Icon art is made by FullmetalDubs Member
    297
    81
    28
    I tried making a list of characters with confirmed parents within the Sonic games, let me know if I missed any.

    1. Cream (no explanation needed)
    2. Eggman? (we know he has a Grandpa but I'm not sure if his mom and dad have been mentioned)
    3. Jet the Hawk (his dad was mentioned within Sonic Riders)
    4. Wave the Swallow (her dad worked with Jet's dad according to the Sonic Riders website)
    5. Shadow the Hedgehog (his dads are Gerald and Black Doom) Side note: Is Shadow Eggman's uncle?
    6. Tikal the Echidna (her dad is Pachacamac)
    7. The Wisps (they all share the same mom)

    Edit: I guess I forgot about Elise
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  19. BlackHole

    BlackHole

    You're going to need MORE than help. Member
    5,645
    771
    93
    England
    Complaining
    Other than my headcanon that Shadow is legally named Shadow Robotnik for humour's sake, possibly. It would also make him Maria's uncle.

    Also, you missed Pachacamac: Tikal mentions her grandmother, who was a prior leader of the Knuckles Tribe which Pachamacha inherited. It was noted in one of the official guides that was indeed his mother.
     
  20. Starduster

    Starduster

    Can bench press at least two Sonic the Hedgehogs Member
    1,985
    1,203
    93
    Britain
    Fighting my procrastination addiction
    Funny thing, Jet’s dad just got a reference in the IDW annual that dropped today, having signed a birthday card he sent to Jet. I was surprised to see this since I didn’t think the characters could be shown having families aside from Cream and Vanilla, but it turns out it’s deep lore!