You know, right now I'm a bigger fan of talking about Sonic here that I am of anything else regarding Sonic. While not the same case as yours, I felt something like this the other day after watching the second movie: while watching it was a storm of feelings, the expected ones (opinions on each scene or reference, enjoying the appeal of the characters, etc.) but it also made my younger self clash with the present one, to the point I was really sad when exiting the theatre because I felt the film arrived too late and also that I kind of had lost a part of me that I needed to enjoy that film the way I was supposed to. "That's the past, I moved on" or something like that. But I'm still finding a good time around here even when talking about childish things, because, lost or not, the people around also had that kind of feelings at some point (their fandom, not my experience with the movie), wether they still keep them or not. I can still relate to you people even if I'm one of the lesser fans around now.
I think the thing that disappoints me the most about Mania, is that the fact that it shouldn't have taken an outside team for it to exist to begin with. You mean to tell me that nobody at Sonic Team really had the talent or skill to make a game like that? Even with Sega's corporate bullshit? Even if it wasn't exactly like Mania, just another 2D game in general alongside the 3D ones would have been fine. It's poisoned the discussion around the game too, because all anyone can talk about is "FANS DID BETTER THAN SONIC TEAM LAWL" as opposed to the talent and skill of the team who made the game possible. Why did it have to come to this? Why did Sega look at the reception to that game and then was just like "Welp, that was fun, time to never do that again". Even if you didn't want to make another 2D game, surely you could have brought them on for a new 3D game like you did with Ian Flynn. But no, you're bringing back the guy that gave us Sonic Forces and for the fourth time at that... I don't even blame some of you for being disillusioned and disheartened by that, shit sucks man...
By describing Mania as a megamix game I meant it as exactly that--it's a game where the majority of its content is built with existing assets from older games. Yes, several of them are retouched or even remade from scratch, so it's not like the developers were using them verbatim; and there's a good amount of new assets in there too. But the preceding point still stands. It's arguably what allowed the game to be produced in the span of time that it was given, compared to if the developers --as the small team that they were-- had to create an entirely new MD game from scratch. (Speaking of production time, pretty sure Stealth himself said that development for Mania --the base game-- "officially" lasted for one year.) There's nothing demeaning about the above statement, it's a pretty cut-and-dry observation/fact; and I'd rather not have my point get twisted for the sake of reading something that's not there. I'm also going to keep on topic in that the reason I brought that up in regards to burnout/lack of interest wasn't as a critique of the capability of their ideas, it was the complete opposite. There's an obvious limit in regards to what you can do when you're mostly given already-defined material to work with; and despite that Mania and the remasters are still a great showcase of ES/HC's work and ideas they have with those projects. From there it's only a question of seeing what they could make without those restrictions. That's literally what my final comment in my previous post alluded to. To me it's less about the results, more to do with the intentions. Sonic Team simply aren't interested in making 2D Sonic games in-house. (Puzzling, given the abundance of side-scrolling gameplay in the 3D games since the 2010s, but that's the reality.)
I think the reality is simpler. SEGA/Sonic Team/Iizuka/whomever, simply decided they don't want to make another 2D Classic Sonic right now. Period. We can only speculate as to why. Japanese companies are very strange in many ways... but Frontiers and Origins are where their current efforts lie, and that's just the simple truth of it. Heck, they've been quiet about Origins for nearly a year now, so one almost wonders if it's turning into vaporware too (I'm expecting a Fall 2022 release, but it was originally slated for early 2022, so what the heck?) If another Classic 2D game ever officially comes, it won't be labeled "Mania" anymore either. It'll likely be relabeled as something else entirely, and I suspect we won't hear about it until the 35th anniversary... if ever. Just give me origins, let the mod scene wrap up a few things in the current working PC Taxman ports, and I'll accept it and move on. Maybe Sonic's new destiny is just as a media icon more than a gaming icon. We haven't even had a proper Sonic title of 'any' variety in nearly 5 years now. That's crazy in and of itself. I have a feeling Sonic 2 the movie will do very well, and that will keep the character from dying out like Rockman and many other older game IPs, but at this point Sega has changed so much I'm wondering how much life Sonic has left in him as a gaming icon to begin with.
This conversation is going in some weird directions now. I'm just as disappointed as the next person that there isn't a Mania 2 happening, but I thought that was kind of a given at this point, and I'm not sure how we made a jump in logic from SEGA not caring about 2D Sonic.. to Sonic as a brand/series being on its last legs. Remember the point that this series was at 15 years ago. Especially compared to the Sonic Cycle days, I don't see any reason to think the series is dying? Especially after a few pretty big successes in recent years, Mania included. The big gap between releases is concerning, yes, but I don't think there's any reason to be concerned, considering we are still in the wake up a global disease pandemic and Iizika said Frontiers' development is a turning point for Sonic Team to begin giving their games the dev time they deserve. That being said, I've definitely been sad at times that the series is probably never going to go in the direction I'd thought it was headed, and I super feel what Josh was saying about the series not really being made for people like me anymore. The series still has a lot of potential though, even if it's not really geared toward our interests. Either way, I'm not sure if we'd even *WANT* Sonic Team touching classic sonic without Evening Star. So it may be for the best anyway
As crazy as it is to think about, Sonic is far more popular as a general media icon than he is as a video game icon. That is just a fact at this point, and you only have to look at the reception the second movie is getting to understand that. Like, Sonic is definitely much more successful nowadays than he was back in the 2000's, and arguably even more than in the 90'. But its come at the expense of Sonic's identity as a video game imo. Which I suppose is the logical conclusion of Sega taking the series in a much more action-cinematic direction once it hit 3D. If the 90's were Sonic's golden years ans the 2000's, their awkward teen phase, then the 2010's were them finding a job after College and struggling under minimum wage. So logically the 2020's is Sonic in his 30's with a stable job and income and settling down. I feel like a lot of fans who grew up in the 90's and 2000's are feeling what @Josh feels. The slow realization that Sonic simply isn't for you anymore and is slowly drifting away from your preferences. Some fans are more accepting like Josh and just cherish what they had while others....aren't. For my part, I felt myself drifting away when I realized "Hey, there are other gaming franchises to play ya know" and that I didn't need to define my identity around this series. That realization alone just made me so much more healthy mentally, and somewhat more accepting of the current iterations of Sonic. I'm not really as married to my specific ideas about the series anymore and so I have less resentment for the series actively not doing that. Obviously I wish they DID just indulge me every now and then, but that just isn't happening so I just take what I can get at this point and just play other franchises when I get the itch. And like, it doesn't make the time I put into this series wasted either, I still have my memories after all. And of course talking with my own peer group who grew up on the same games as me. So yea, I'm good with no Mania sequel. It sucks, but it is what it is. The less time I spend trying to comprehend the decisions of a Japanese corporation when it comes to this series, the better off I'll be.
Actually that makes sense, I have a friend that never played Sonic (or probably have played only Sonic 2 on a LONG time ago) but this person really likes the character, the design, aesthestic, music and the potential on the lore. Honestly, I think that's okay becoming a Sonic fan without even playing the games. My other friend also doesn't know anything about Sonic but he knows Escape From the City and he fucking loves it.
Bro, I have legit talked to people who have never touched a single game and are just fans of the characters and lore. My generation specifically who came up on the 6th Gen consoles were primarily attracted by the stylish designs and lore. This is why a game like 06 can have such a large following online despite being an absolute nadir of a game. Most fans' primary investment are in the aesthetics, with the gameplay only serving as a function to experience that. What is one of the most vocal criticisms on social media nowadays? The lack of playable characters and interesting lore as opposed to something like the games being mechanically and functionally barebones. And this makes sense because most Sonic fans are artists, their passion coming from their love of the series. Its a lot easier to say you love Sonic because "he looks cool" or "I like his personality" than it is going into the nuanced complicated designs of his gameplay. The average person doesn't know shit about game design so its harder to talk about and comprehend beyond superficial stuff like "I like this" or "I don't like this". Sonic hasn't had his signature rolling ability in decades and so many younger fans and even some in my generation cannot understand why that's such a big deal. Or why an ability like the Drop Dash is such a meaningful addition to Sonic's repertoire versus, adding another edgy furry rival for Sonic to fight. Its so weird being in the middle of it too. Because I love Sonic's lore and all, but I'll be damned if I miss when these games were mechanically interesting lol.
could've sworn it was brought up in the general info thread that Mania runs on a different version of Retro Engine than their earlier remakes. That's not nothing - consider that tools programming, engine programming are often disciplines that coders specialize in because it tends to take a lot of time and effort. And engine changes can doom an entire project, something we have with Rise of Lyric needing to do so at the last minute. IMO just going "oh well it's mostly recycled content" kind of reduces the amount of work needed to get that content working with the new formats the engine apparently has, etc.. One could also speculate that such knowledge and work is why Sonic Team hasn't made an attempt since Sonic 4. Having to write new engines, etc from scratch takes away availability of Sonic Team's existing efforts, especially if those efforts involve their own inhouse engines that only certain people within the company could help with and are currently working on for games in progress. Like with the Rise of Lyric example, we also have an example of this within Sonic: the concurrent development of Sonic 06 and Secret Rings (which started in the middle of 06's development cycle mind you!) absolutely murdered 06's chances of being good because Sonic Team was now spread so thin that making a game to 06's original scale was basically impossible to do well.
We've never been at this point. There has never been a 5 year gap without a mainline title before, 2D or 3D. Maybe that points to good news for Frontier being a truly revolutionary title, but it also shows a major shift in priorities for SEGA of some kind. The very fact that they couldn't even get Origins out this month to tie into the movie is a massive, massive mistake from just a pure marketing perspective. There are people on this board who honestly could've coded a working Origins collection in a month, maybe even a week. The only game we got for Sonic's entire Anniversary Year was a mixed quality Colors port, and we've only seen one gameplay preview and two short bits of collection footage that we aren't even sure are from the actual product. I'm not trying to be jaded. Despite the mediocrity of Forces, Sonic is actually in a pretty good place brand-wise right now as a media icon. Still relevant in Smash, a very active mod and fan art community, a successful film series with almost universal praise, an upcoming Netflix series, an ongoing fresh comic series. Only Nintendo IPs get that kind of mascot like exposure anymore, and even then, only Pokemon is that much of a media sensation. What other video game character has that these days? My only guess is that Sonic himself might be losing so much relevance in Japan that SEGA would rather just focus on the Yakuza series and spinoffs (which do quite well for the company now), and their publishing deals with Atlas. Sonic Mania was marketed solidly there, but maybe it didn't sell well? I mean, Sonic has struggled to be relevant in Japan for years, yet Sonic Team always seems to be influenced by what the Japanese market that barely cares about Sonic at all is interested in. Also, I'll be glad if we don't get a rushed product with Frontiers and it ends up being a quality game in the end, believe me. And of course I'd be glad to be wrong about SEGA deciding to make another Mania-like title, but at this point it's clear that they simply have other priorities. A mixed quality port of Colors should not be all we get from the brand at this point.
There is a lot to unpack from recent comments on this thread and I'm not about to dive into all that. I do think, however, that Mania was so well-received that it may be too soon to rule out something of a sequel way down the line. Or, let me rephrase that. I think the possibility still exists for a new “classic Sonic” 2D platformer somewhere down the line. Although, it may be a stretch to think Evening Star would be involved. It probably wouldn't be old-school pixel art either. It also probably wouldn't be branded as a Mania 2. Unfortunately, I should add. However, I do think there's a chance of a new 2D Classic Sonic themed game, but it may take years to see. But, on the bright side, it probably wouldn't have old zones in it and would probably be all new levels as Mania already did that. That is the hope at least. But without Evening Star or the Retro Engine (or whatever they're calling it nowadays), we can only hope they get the physics right. Of course, I have no way of knowing and this is all an educated guess on my part. I could be way off. And knowing SEGA, it is difficult to say for sure no matter how well Mania performed.
I have no doubt we're going to get another 2D game eventually. I just don't think its going to be a classic styled one. Reasons being, as many have said, Sega of Japan likely just sees Classic Sonic as a novelty, an image to throw out to entice certain people towards a product as opposed to an extension of the Sonic brand itself. Modern Sonic is what the "default" is nowadays. I think its rather telling that the movie incarnation of Sonic took more inspiration from the Modern design than the classic one. And when they techniques separated the two universes, well...you see how well the "Human and animal world" retcon went over in the fanbase and how quickly they backpedaled on it and how relieved people were. Modern Sonic is just what Sonic is to many people and internally at Sega. For better or worse. The fact that Mania exists and we got so much content from it, is itself a miracle, but that feels like all it was, a miracle. Not the start of some revolution as we all hoped and assumed. The fact that the Sonic brand, in the last five years or so, was able to take off so suddenly without Mania really driving that at all probably just establishes that Sega doesn't need Classic Sonic as much as fans want him.
Not sure what the commentary about the Retro Engine's development has to do with my point about Mania's content? Is the argument being made that the advances/changes in the engine that were done for Mania make the amount of old/new content in the game irrelevant? If Mania was instead built in an older version of the Retro Engine, and it still had the same ratio of old/new levels and ideas as it does now, do you think the statement about the game being based on old content no longer applies? Would it no longer apply if it was instead built in the Sonic 4 engine? As for continued accusations about me disparaging the Mania devs' work and capabilities, you're free to go back and actually read my previous posts to see what my message was in bringing up the game's content in the first place. It's super clear in my last reply. Don't bother misquoting me or pretend to not notice this one plain point I've now already had to explain twice.
Agreeing with 5993 here. IMO it's not really for the better or for the worse, modern Sonic has just been the default for a long time now and I think it's safe to say the brand, and the games, isn't dying or sinking due to the lack of a classic entry. Mania was awesome, but it was successful because it was awesome, just a really stand-out game that not only surpassed expectations, but the classic gameplay formula still offers something unique in the world of modern platformers. The series doesn't NEED classic to succeed, it just needs good games that offer something unique. Bargain bin titles aren't gonna cut it... it's arguably the character's insane brand appeal and universally recognizable character design that have helped the series survive a long history of critical failures. And I think most of us just hold onto the idea that classic gameplay might return because those games have always done exceptionally well, even if there are only a handful of non-handheld classic games in the entire 30 years of this series. The brand itself still seems to be doing fine, and we're at a much better point than we were 15 or so years ago, when Sonic didn't just have a string of mediocre releases, but the series was kind of the biggest laughing stock it's ever been on the social internet. If we can actually get a good game this holiday, to follow up what is looking to be the best-selling video game movie of all time, I think Sonic is in a really, really good place. And hopefully that includes the game franchise, not just the brand or the media icon.
Just kinda realized something- The first 4 (5) classic games spanned from '91 to '94. Approximately 4 years. If you wanna be generous and count the entire era, then it made it to '97/'98- about 8 years. Everything that encompasses "modern" Sonic has been in full effect since 1998. 23 years. I love Classic Sonic as much as the next guy, and am dying for another classic style 2D platformer, but I literally do not have the brain capacity to wrap my mind around how some people legitimately think Classic Sonic is still relevant at all. Mania was fantastic, but I feel anyone who thinks Mania was a product of Sonic "getting with the times" or whatever is seriously out of touch. I'm 100% aware I'm coming off as blunt to a point of jackassery, but really- when I see people online acting like Classic Sonic is anything more than pandering, I've finally figured out why I hate it so much. Sega has no interest in Classic Sonic as a viable future for the franchise. It hurts me to know that more of my favorite games is nothing more than a pipe dream, but what else can I do? The old Sonic became irrelevant in '98- two years before I was even born. It's time to move on. Desperately clinging on to what once was isn't doing me any favors, and I'd be hard pressed to believe it's helping anyone else either. Still... I'll never stop wishing for my blue boi to come home...
I mean, it's not like we literally need Classic Sonic in order to get a sidescroller, or even a game with classic-style gameplay. There is no rule that Modern Sonic can't have those kinds of games. He already got two in Pocket Adventure and Advance, even if they weren't as good as S3K and Mania. The boost gameplay has just been the norm for years, but that's not a hard rule either, as shown by SLW.
Classic Sonic is relevant because it is still the most well received and universally loved incarnation of the franchise. People will endlessly argue over which 3D games are shit, but not the classic games. Sonic may still be popular now (especially with the movie), but the series has never again reached the cultural status it did in the 90s. Sorry you think everyone is out of touch because they're not as young as you lol.
I don't think it's that he's getting at. It's moreso that people think Sonic "needs" the classic aesthetic in order to be beloved again, when he's stayed beloved for 23 years without it as his main thing. Sonic only ever needed his games to be good. People go on about how cool they find the visuals, music, story, presentation of other Sonic games for decades. And it's not just fans in their own bubble. Millions love it. These games still sell a lot of copies; regardless if it's the top sellers or not. The thing that separates the classics from all that is how the good the gameplay was. If Sonic could deliver that (even if not like the classics) the people will love it just as they do the classics. Colors and Generations, whether you like them as much or not, are proof of this.
I don’t think that Modern Sonic is what has caused the series to stay beloved, as you say. If anything, the Sonic that is referred to as Modern, which is different in design in a lot of ways to the Dreamcast era between 1998 - 2005, has been received less favourably and is less interesting to fans and certainly to the general public. There’s a reason that people lap up all of the Mega Drive re-releases, all of the Classic Sonic merchandise (seriously, there’s way more of that readily available than Modern), and then there’s Mania which was received favourably and sold very well. We’re in a time where retro gaming and collecting is pretty huge, and we’re now in the years where the 90’s are looked on favourably and referenced in the same way that the 80’s are. The generations who once owned a Mega Drive are now looking back to those games and that time and that’s what is selling well right now. The last two Modern games have included Classic Sonic, the movies call back to those games, and I would argue that it is Classic Sonic which has helped keep the series afloat in the last 10 years, not Modern. SEGA would be insane to ignore cues from the original games in future, and incredibly short-sighted to not release another 2D Classic-styled game especially with Origins on the horizon which I’m sure will only bolster the love and appreciation for them once again.
No one outside of the deep fanbase can discern much of a difference between classic and modern, let alone the fans's hair-splitting "Adventure" and "modern" (Unleashed-now?). The common public can't even tell you if Sonic's arms are supposed to be blue or not. Hell, people who actually work on the franchise can't seem to get that discerned, lol. It's all Sonic to them. Regardless of what we fans view as good or bad, better or worse. And yeah, classic Sonic is often really aesthetically pleasing and high quality, this much is known. But even going by your own assessments, the truth is easy to see: classic Sonic sells these days because the nostalgia is marketable. Many people gravitate to it for it's style, yes, but most of the public gravitates to it because it reminds them of the days of playing Genesis. The moment they move on to playing up nostalgia to Adventure-era fans (something they've already started), people will flock to that too in high volume. Certain future decisions for a fan-favorite film franchise are as much of proof to that. And it's not like we can ignore the millions of people just as willing to belt out to Escape From the City as the ones before it were to hum Green Hill. Sonic's gonna be successful as long as people like what they're giving. It's never been all that complex. Sonic Mania didn't get all eyes on it and unanimous praise all around the world for being some symbol of what the "classic" Sonic era means; it got it cuz it looked good, sounded good, played good, was good. Keep dreaming for a new 2D classic Sonic by all means; I do too! They're extremely good! But this was never what defined his success, to the public or otherwise. It was just the game quality itself. Make a good game, and the people will come.
