We see nothing in-game. We see it in a comic that is supposed to be canonical, but that leads to the confusion of why he's making Phantom Rubies at all when the one he has surpasses the power of the Master Emerald in his opinion. I do not consider the comics canonical parts, so it's of no issue to me, I'll quickly stress before that old argument of yours rears its head.
Considering that Sonic Team plotted the comics and that they're on the Sonic Forces website (English and Japanese) and that they tie into Episode Shadow, there's nothing to indicate that Sonic Team doesn't consider those comics canon. Regardless, there's nothing for Modern Eggman to rebuild. Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces are set in different dimensions. Modern Eggman has no knowledge of the events of Sonic Mania. Fans can pick and choose which installments of any series they want to acknowledge and not acknowledge, but "canon", by definition, is determined by an authority figure. In this case the authority is Sonic Team. As fans, we can speculate what is and isn't part of Sonic Team's canon, based upon statements and evidence given by Sonic Team. But we don't get to decide what is and isn't canon. Just as a Marvel comics fan can't decide that all Avengers comics published in 1988 are non-canon. They can choose to ignore them, but they're still part of the canon until Marvel says otherwise. There's a screenshot in this post: https://2v-leixip.tumblr.com/post/635874586949550080/true-blue-sonic-greenyvertekins-i-made-a
Thank you! So, there's a problem with the "origin stone" in the prequel comics because its shape is the same as the prototypes. For this and the prequel comics to make some sense, I think we have to consider that the "origin stone shape" present in the Death Egg Robot is a modified shape? Like, Eggman found the original Phantom Ruby lying on the ground and it had that look seen in the prequel comics, then he tested it and modified its shape for him to use it in the Death Egg Robot.
I think the implication is that Eggman didn’t have control over the original ore and the prototypes were his failed attempt to reverse engineer it into something controllable. The perfected one on Infinite’s chest was the result, though it needs a remote power source for some reason. All of them are just referred to as the Phantom Ruby too, which makes things unnecessarily confusing. It made more sense when it was just a machine made by Eggman (the Valtron), and Infinite was one of his creation I’m pretty sure the comics and DLC were written after the main game’s story to fill in missing plot info and try to make sense of everything, but they kind of just made some things more confusing. The depiction of the raw ore as a prototype in the comics is just an error. I don’t think there’s any need to justify its shape, just assume whatever happened happened with the original stone’s shape. Also it’s a minor nitpick but “origin stone” isn’t a name, it’s a mistranslation by someone who doesn’t speak Japanese. The word for an ore or gem in the rough (原石) is written with a kanji that can mean original/primitive (原) and the kanji for stone (石), so they just translated each kanji individually.
I agree, but at the same time is likely that they assume the Phantom Ruby from Mania is the original one, not the prototype. It's not what they intended, but that's how Ian thinks of it. And it would be weird if the same original Phantom Ruby had two different shapes.
Considering said comic doesn't tie into Episode Shadow DLC well, what with the DLC taking place in the City while the comic takes place near Arsenal Pyramid, which one am I supposed to take as canonical? Were Shadow and Omega in the City while Omega fought Infinite, or were they near Arsenal Pyramid? If only we didn't have two conflicting canonical details!
This DLC doesn't tie well with anything. Six months have passed with Rouge not telling anyone that Shadow wasn't the real Shadow.
I mean, Ian’s ultimately just guessing like the rest of us until he gets notes telling him otherwise, at least when it comes to past games.
Between the rewrites in 06 and Forces, I think Forces end up being more egregious despite 06 having Causality Loops since at least that retcons itself out. I think Rapheal and Blue Spikeball are probably closest to what happened. 01.Phantom Ruby drops into modern Eggman's lap. It's a self powered gem, but seemingly has power limitations and likely a set area of effect. Creates semi-real constructs that don't make sense if you think to hard about what they thought Augmented Reality meant. Check. Seemingly the HBH show it can cause some semi-permanent changes to real things too. Metal Sonic Kai was in-between. So it shows some logic and limitations to its power. Not much internal consistency, we are definitely over thinking things. 02.We see Infinite interact with it next too in the comics, Eggman decides hey, let's weaponize this. It's about as sensible as most Eggman plots really. 03.Duplication. The main Ruby had limitations. Or was inherently unstable which would explain discrepancies. The duplicates and the massive power sources involved would logically be to expand the power involved beyond any set limitations or overcome inherent flaws. We see that the Avatars gem was somehow lost in the shuffle during this development phase. Likely from whatever bounced the original to the Mania universe since I don't think these gems were meant to be the same? So Likely some Botched experiment. Classic Eggman move. 04.Final Product. The very fact the early copies more closely resembled the original shows they were likely cheap knockoffs. Infinite's was the closest to whatever the final goal was. We see numerous ruby's tied to Eggman's Fortress in a reactor and one that is in the "Death Egg Robot" which looks even more different and overdeveloped like in that screenshot. So the fact it is tied to a powersource means it's likely a duplicate too? Also absorbed Infinite? I forget how this was said to have gone down in the end. If they could make duplicate Chaos Emeralds, I guess Mass Produced weaponized Ruby's weren't too far off base. Only thing is by the end the original ends up back in the Mania universe for Encore and in the Modern universe they mostly cleaned themselves up with Maybe infinite trapped somewhere along with his? My brain is shutting down now. Weird misnomer, "Death Egg Robot" due to it not being on the death egg, but I digress. Edit: Note for Hitlersaurus Christ. Ian used to get all of the scripts and continuity notes about what was in and out of continuity at any given time dating back to around Unleashed. It seemed to lack finer details at times until the switch to IDW and around Forces where he had access to more details strait from the horses mouth at Sonic Team. So he likely has a good idea what's going on now more so than ever before. If there are gaps in anything it might just be even Sonic Team might need to straiten their shit out which it seems like they are.
Also the thing being rammed into by three superpowered beings at superspeed, with the implication of it shattering, but let's face facts, Sonic Forces' story is just unfixable with how they have it now.
If I'm not misremembering it, the Avatar's Phantom Ruby drop off of Infinite during his battle against Silver.
It's stated Infinite is collecting and destroying the prototypes. Which is why I don't buy the duplication excuse: Robotnik is clearly attempting to 'perfect' something, rather than make a copy. When he gets what he wants, he doesn't produce an army, he just makes the one and disposes of any other variant of it. I would assume this includes the Sonic Mania Phantom Ruby, since apparently Sonic Team have declared that a prototype canonically.
Was it really declared a prototype? It would contradict one showing back up in Encore since it wouldn't be the one the Avatar had at all. Could just be the early duplicates were just close to the original in appearance. Ish. Raphael, the Avatar had his until the giant death sunball scene where I thought the Avatar' Shattered. I think it was dropped and picked back up in the earlier scenes. Not destroyed or lost. Blackhole is right. I know the ones all in the mobile forces game were all considered prototypes as well so they were being collected to be destroyed as the story states, just a lot of them at one time. Just rewatched the final boss scene. The gem is in the mouth of the robot at times and seemingly tied to the central purple orb? The triple team attack punches through the robot above the mouth at the purple spot and the gem isnt seen in the mouth after. So pretty sure Blackholes point about that one being Shattered is likely spot on.
Infinite's is a Final Prototype. Sonic Team have it noted on concept art that the Phantom Ruby of Sonic Mania is another prototype that somehow got sent back in time and across timelines, somehow.
It’s pretty hard to pin down exactly what happened with it, but I think you have some mistakes in there. The one from Mania isn’t the original, it’s a prototype. That’s something directly stated by Sonic Team. The Ruby Eggman originally finds isn’t the one from Mania; that one is uncounted for in Forces’ plot, since it doesn’t come out with Classic Sonic when he appears. It’s possible it just popped out somewhere offscreen, or maybe it stayed in the Mania universe or in a dimensional rift while making the portal between universes. the one in the “death egg robot” is officially the original. Why does it need a power source? Who knows. Maybe it is its own power source? None of Forces makes sense. Oh, did he get the scripts? From what he’s said on the Bumblekast it seemed like he only found out all this stuff on a need to know basis. Like when he wanted to include something in the comics he’d submit the pitch and Sega would give him notes about it telling him “Sonic R is canon so please don’t use it right now” or “Infinite is dead, don’t use him.” Maybe I misunderstood? EDIT: beaten. damn I’m slow at typing
Yeah. He commented on Orbots original name being 5A55 or something in Unleashed's script, but having a script and knowing wider details about the world unless they give him notes are two seperate things. That's about spot on. They would give him notes as part of the stories he was doing so they didn't contradict things as they took more of a hand in the comics. Early Archie - Started with a lot of approval processes. Mid Archie, Late Ken, Pre Ian - Almost hands off. Went from approving all stories to sometimes just skipping approval. Ken left when they started telling him no to a lot of things again. Sega would give them nothing at all, just notes to adapt games. This ties into the Spaz and Ken comments about the big Adventure adaptation being Spaz playing an import copy and Ken Being pissed about being told to use Shadow. Early Ian - Unleashed they started giving scripts and notes. This was likely the more need to know phase. Late Archie - Ian mentioned they started giving deeper notes when giving him corrections on stories along with some developers notes apparently. His first mentions of this tie to the post Reboot content and that he found out about the two worlds thing pre that being rectified right at the end of the Archie run when he was given more documents. Likely some kind of character Bible or guide of some sort. More detailed, but still leaving plenty of holes. The Forces comic and IDW was when Ian was more directly in contact with Sonic Team. With the dictionary he definitely received more data, since he saw gaps in badnik names in Chaotix and was allowed to name a couple. So Likely some access to the Sega archives or its content maybe? Then with writing a game he likely has some pretty in depth details now. How much is need to know is kinda out the window. Edit: There have been several series Bibles for different parts of the franchise. I know merchandisers had some. I wonder if they eventually had more comprehensive ones for tie ins. It would certainly explain where the two worlds confusion sprouted if it was poorly worded in one of these.
Also, checking videos to track individual Phantom ruby's. Ruby 00 - The original. Seen on the comics. Basic design. If it was modified, possibly the DERobot boss fight and Shattered. If not, unseen and still possibly a problem. Ruby 0.5 - The one in the DERobot. Destroyed by the triple attack. Looks like the base shape with added crystal growths. Ruby 01 - Mania. Seemingly an unstable prototype then. Basic Design. Seen in Mania, then again after Forces with Encore. Not destroyed. Ruby 02 - The Avatars. A prototype of the basic design. Found early in the game, seems Silver did cause Infinite to drop it at one point, destroyed after the sunball, smashed on the ground by the avatar. Ruby 03 - Final Product, unique design with Infinite. Went wherever Infinite is now which is seemingly limbo. Rubies Extra - Mystic Jungle base, Sonic Forces Speed Battle. Mostly purged as a threat to Eggman's plans. Ruby Cluster - Eggman Fortress reactor with 3 Rubys. Destroyed. The only surviving ones would be the Mania Ruby and possibly Infinite's then?
I don't think the causality loops in 06 are a problem. There are several stories in fiction that uses this concept. The best example I remember now is Dark, the Netflix series (it's a great show!). Not even that thing about the Chaos Emerald becoming Elise's lucky charm for 10 years is a problem, in my opinion. It would be like there were two of the same Chaos Emerald; one with Elise, and the other one (the same) appearing in the games before 06. Apparently time travel in the Sonic universe works as Back to the Future, so you go to the past, you change things, and the present is changed. And 06 is not like that, for the most part. But you can easily say that the spacetime flow in Soleanna was different due to Mephiles being released after the experiments on Solaris and messing with time for his own benefit. Even Sonic CD, which looks like it follows the Back to the Future interpretation, does not. Little Planet has all sorts of time shenanigans, as can be seen in Sonic CD's opening and in Sonic 4. About the Phantom Ruby, does the Encyclo-speed-ia say anything useful about it?
