Sonic Jam commentaries tell all~

I could be mistaken, but isn't that computer she's working on an Amiga? I know they did a lot of their mock up art on Amigas.

 

Tweaker, my problem is not that this is "old" If you guys wanna discuss this stuff that's fine, I don't have a problem with that. Here's my problem. You're talking about respect. What about when I or someone else brought this kind of stuff up before and was told "OLD" or "We knew that" or my favorite, that we can't trust Naka. That Craig Sitt lied. Everything I said was a joke. Where's the respect there? No one even considered that what I said was true even though Naka himself said it.

Now all of a sudden YOU come by and say it and everyone believes. That's my problem. It's nothing against you, but when I tried discussing this before everyone was very "NO NO NO IT'S THIS WAY AND THAT WAY!" And now there's all this speculation because YOU brought it up.

http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=10117&

Not to mention I can guarantee that if a trial member came in here and brought up everything in this thread sans Cyber City, they'd be misfitted in a Sonic second. Seriously, if a Trial member came in here and said that Flying Battery was to come right after CarnivalNight Zone, you KNOW what would happen.

I'm not saying "old" I'm saying "This sucks that this can only be discussed without flames when an admin comes along and brings it up."

That's what I'm saying. That's all, I got it out of my system, I'm done with it.

 

Tweaker, he makes a good point. You'd be upset in his position. It doesn't seem fair that even though someone came up with all this stuff a while ago, it was ignored. Called childish and implausible. An apology or at least a pat on the back is in order. Credit where credit due, and Quexinos deserves some for coming up with the idea ages ago.

 

About the GHZ stuff, I'm starting to think the translation might be a bit misguiding:
<!--quoteo(post=196574:date=May 23 2008, 01:26 AM:name=Scarred Sun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarred Sun @ May 23 2008, 01:26 AM) [/quote]
I think he might have been referring to the brown mountains, and how they tried to make them feel like polygonal art just like the Green Hill palmtrees. They really put the "fake colors" effect to good use in those:

The early concept art for Sonic 1 shows how the blue things in the early GHZ mountains were just buildings.

 

Great, a quote breakdown. Didn't think I'd have to do another one of these anytime soon. Ugh.

Um... that thread has absolutely nothing wrong with it. Given the facts that were available, your points were debunked as they were revealed to be invalid. If you can't adequately explain your speculation, questions, statements, whatever—then expect them to be debunked with facts that are widely known. When you asked about the whole "Did we agree that Naka was just saying what they wanted to hear?" deal, you simply never got an answer. If I were to answer that question given recent developments, I'd say that no, he did not—all these comments I've seen by Naka are very casual and fit in with a lot of things that we know, so I have no reason not to trust them.

If a Trial Member came in and explained it exactly as I did, given the context that surrounded, then I would agree with it as well, and wouldn't flame them in the least. A good point is a good point, regardless of who makes it—the elitism in this community doesn't stretch that far by any means, at least not anymore. It would have been new to me and the people in the IRC regardless, so whether you knew it the whole time or not is irrelevant. It's like you want to flame people for the sake of flaming, which isn't cool in the slightest.

I'm not the only one who could ever be the one to bring this up. In fact, I didn't even want to write that gigantic wall of text =P It's just what I was assigned to write in the IRC. We dibbied up the subjects of discussion.

This is all about explanation, reasoning, evidence, observation, what have you—ultimately, no theory is anything without any sort of evidence and logic behind it. If you don't have that, or if you omit key points, then it falters below popular opinion. If you really know your stuff, though, you can make things much clearer than they would seem otherwise, making the theory more plausible if a random newbie came in with bad typing and proposed this same idea for different reasons. This is the core difference between speculation now and speculation 8 years ago—we've actually got evidence to support our claims.

 

This very much sounds intended to me, much like a New Game +

As others agree, I doubt this. Having 2 spaced out zones using one tileset simply saves time, which we all know was in short supply. Desert and Winter were to do it, as well as Chemical Plant and Death Egg in the final.

Hill Top was designed first, Emerald Hill was most likely palette adapted to be the game's Green Hill.

I remember reading a lot of stuff about them being the same, with the awesome 3D tube stages, Sonic 2 with new CD music, etc. If only

 

Then I think you guys don't give yourselves enough credit. I mean when the only way we can say for 100% sure that Flying Battery came after Carnival Night Zone and that Sonic would snowboard down the hill on the door is because it's in Sonic Jam... well... I always believed it. Maybe you didn't, but I always did. I always thought it was true, not because Naka said so, but because I have enough faith in the community to make those educated guesses. That's why I'm so surprised by all this. It's like you guys are almost putting yourselves down. There are some things we don't need Naka to tell us. We can figure it out and we will continue to figure it out, and even if Naka never said anything about any of that stuff, I'd STILL present it as fact.

As for what I said about the Trial Member, I don't completely agree with you. I guess I don't think they'd be misfitted but it'd be like, "Okay thanks for the info." and that'd be it.

Yeah I need to find where people said that, I thought it was in that topic but I guess it was a different one. I'm wondering if it was even on CulT or something...

 

Disarm the other person. Don't arm them, that just creates an argument. There's no need to arguing. It's just a simple misunderstanding guys =)

All this info is very interesting, but I'm not so sure we can make much from it. We know CPZ was supposed to come later, we know there wasn't supposed to be 3 acts originally in Metropolis. The way I see it, the only way we'll know exactly how this game was supposed to be put together originally is to see the storyboard, or some equivallent.

 

Yeah, I know, sorry... I usually don't like to explode like that, but all this stuff condensing into one place really irritated me, because I don't think it's necessary.

Also, Cooljerk... you sure it's a good idea to post that? We don't want another mass swarm of people emailing staff members with stupid questions, making them reluctant to answer the real questions. =\

 

I too apologize for flying off the handle. I have this insecure problem and my line of thinking was that "NO ONE FUCKING LISTENS TO ME GOD! I FUCKING HATE THEM!"

But I'm over it.

 

This thread has a lot of "well thought out suppositions supplanting missing information isn't good enough" going for it. I've watched over the Sonic development-curious community for a long time, and I probably should've become more involved with it a lot sooner. A lot of very diligent folks got Sega crew on the line and performed interviews. But when certain things were said by these developers that some chose not to agree with, they simply dismissed them as "they couldn't remember" or "they were just saying what we wanted to hear." Maybe the former is sometimes true, but did anyone really know better? Now that some things have come to light that simply prove what was already known and discussed, I find it almost shameful that there is as much excitement about it as there is. Most people should realize that these are merely confirmations on what was already well thought out. You guys don't give yourselves nearly enough credit and really caused yourselves more friction than attempts to document what you have using the resources presented to you. Physicists working on Quantum Mechanics really don't have any for-sure idea how the tiny intricacies of the universe work ... but they'll go with what they get!

And about Flying Battery... I had that figured out as soon as I had the Game Genie code years and years ago. It pretty much proves itself. Every Sonic 3 level transitioned to the next logically. Carnival Night's "cannon up to the mountain" was really far-fetched. It makes much more sense that he'd catch a low-flying air ship. Then Ice Cap has a "random" snow board. But the door? Totally makes sense.

If that's not enough, then the game logic proves it by itself. Unlike the prior Sonic games, the level order matches zone order. Angel Island = 0, Hydrocity = 1... Flying Battery = 4 (Zone 5.) The music in the sound test also dictates zone order. And everyone was so mystified that a simple save game modification in Sonic lights up FB as Zone 5.

My view is, this community has become saturated. There's this major resurgence of interest, and you're all scrambling for new things, but there's just not enough to meet the demand. You all really do need that Sonic 1 beta, not another Genocide city theory. I mean, it was a cut level, sometime known as Cyber City. You got it. What else really matters?

 

Uh oh, Tweaker's gonna fucking flip =O

Well that fact that Metropolis act 3 IS Cyber City is what's new here.. .but I guess I could just go next door to discuss that with you *does so*

 

Well said Rob.

There's no harm in this though.

Also I do sometimes wonder how much would a Sonic 1 Beta really bring to the table... If it was early, maybe something, but a later build will bring relatively nothing, as we've seen with the recent release from drx. Most of the differences are a bit inconsequential.

 

You're right, we do need a Sonic 1 Beta desperately, but that's besides the point. What makes the part about Genocide City so special is that this whole time we figured the most we would ever get of GCZ was the concept art, and we weren't even hopeful of getting something that good. We thought it'd always be a total mystery. To think that the level was not only under our noses the whole time, but pretty much a part of the final game and completed, is nothing short of a stunning revelation. We're surprised about the fact that we didn't notice this sooner, and by the fact that GCZ was not lost this whole time. In fact it might as well be called the most complete and available lost level we've known about now! A total turn around!

 

Haha, I'm not mad anymore.

My problem is how everyone is trying to act like all this was "well known" before because of various observations that people thought made sense... when in reality, there was never concrete confirmation. This excitement is about the concrete confirmation that, ironically, has been in front of our face for years and we never thought to look at it.

And I think it's extremely shallow to never think of suggesting logical possibilities to help explain "holes" in our developmental timeline. My idea is just that—an idea—and by no means am I declaring it absolute truth. I'm saying that at this point it's a logical possibility that should be considered, and not completely disregarded like you seem to be trying to do.

I think it's pretty crappy to try and discourage excitement here. These are the kind of things we live for! I think if we can have an enthusiastic, positive discussion about this, without anyone tearing into anyone else, then we should, regardless of whether or not we have absolutely, rock-bottom conclusive proof. The truth is, things can go either way at this point—so it's unfair to single somebody out like what they say doesn't matter if you don't have conclusive proof to debunk their theory, either. Nothing's conclusive here at the moment.

 

Well there's NO way we would have known that XD

 

Back to the Amiga that woman is working on; it looks like right next to the large sonic she's drawing is a smaller, scaled version of it. Either she's scaling it up by hand, or she's working on a blown up version, and watching the smaller sonic change with it to reflect how it'll look at it's proper size.

Anyway, someone suggested a skypechat or skypecast; that's a great idea, as this topic is something that a live vocal chat would benefit greatly.

 

That's what I think she's doing is working on a blown up version. And that was me who suggested the Skypecast. I'm considering just starting it myself if no one else will.

 

I don't have access to skype, so that would be most unfortunate if the discussion moved there.

 

No, something like this would be a bad thing to discuss over a Skypecast, because a lot of details would be lost among the voice recordings. It's better if they're kept in here, I think, so they'll remain archived for years to come.