I kind of feel the spin dash takes away about as much as it adds

Unpopular opinion, I’m sure. Also, if there is a thread on the spin dash itself, let me know because I would rather post this there, as I don’t think it’s worth an entire thread.

I recognize that the spin dash can be used as a tool for exploration in that you can use the momentum it gives and slope jumps to reach higher/farther areas that would otherwise be inaccessible. And it makes the game more forgiving in that if you lose speed, you won’t have to backtrack to overcome momentum based obstacles. Yet, I do think something was lost when it was added, a potential.

Primary example I always think about is this small section from spring yard. Hopefully the video will play from the point I posted it at this time, and not from the beginning. (Still figuring this stuff out) If it does go to beginning, please go to 0:38.



Without the spin dash, I always get a feel of tension approaching this area. I know that I have to time this jump just right or I won’t make it to the top path. It is a small window because of how fast you are moving, and it approaches fast. You have to wait a bit, but yeah

With the spindash? Not really. You can simply just stop, charge up a spin dash and then immediately jump. It’s not like spindash jumping is a particularly challenging or complex input. There is no real sense of tension. (Well, maybe there could be a little more in this particular section, where if you fail you can’t backtrack and try again. But in most cases where you use momentum jumps off slopes, not really) There is no real timing involved, no way to do it “too early.” You can jump immediately after charging.

In the 2D games, there isn’t as much potential being squandered. Like, to maintain the speed and momentum needed to properly take advantage of an upcoming incline, all you really need to do is hold right and maybe vault over some obstacles.

But in the 3D games, there is potential being missed. You could get up speed, and then you have to turn through the winding and curving terrain, through the turns, without running into anything so you don’t lose that built up momentum, until you can make it to the incline that will take you the higher path/secret area/whatever.

There is real tension because there is real consequence. You can’t just get that back from spindashing.

I would like to see them experiment more with maybe not having the spin dash, or at least making it an unlockable.

Another idea is already kind of done, at least in the Classics and in fan games like Sonic GT. That is simply making sure the spin dash can’t get you to max speed. There is a speed cap that can only be broken with rolling down hill that the spindash alone can’t break

Then if you run into something, you can get your speed back, but not enough to take advantage of that incline.

It is this aspect that I feel neither the Classics nor GT really capitalize on. In more cases than not, I feel they make it to where the spin dash, even if it can’t get you to top speed, get’s you to enough speed to take advantage of it. In these cases, I feel it is more a level design issue than the mechanic itself.

 

The second time you guys made me realize I used a lot of words to describe a simple concept, that could be condensed into one paragraph. Lol

 

Thanks for that thread, I will have a look at it later.

Monentum based obstacles such as loops. Adding the spindash so the player can overcome them.

Hmm….

Okay. But if all you have to do is stop and fire up a spindash, are these even obstacles anymore? Is there even any real point to them? Because that provides no challenge.

What skill is it testing? Precision? Timing? Pattern recognition? Reaction?

And I’d argue that loops themselves never provided a challenge. Yes you have to maintain momentum as you’re coming upon them by jumping over obstacles and such, but that’s where the gameplay is, where the real test of skill is.

But when you get past that and get to the loops and tall ramps themselves? Well these are overcome by simply holding right.

They themselves are not really a challenge. They are just an indicator of how you did in the challenges you were just facing. Like touching the flag pole at the end of a 2D Mario level. The fact that you do it means you were able to overcome the challenges that preceded it in the level. But touching the flagpole itself takes almost no thought at all.

 

As far as having to use the spin dash in angles and slopes, an impossibility, I can’t really think of any specific instances where you’re prevented from just going a little back and finding level ground. I see people struggle with momentum based obstacles in YouTube videos sometimes, particularly with people who are unfamiliar with Sonic, but I’m yet to see a case where It’s a pretty clear reason why they are having trouble besides just trying to the same thing repeatedly (holding right.)

I can see how it can be annoying, though. Having to run back a bit.

What do you think of the idea of keeping the spin dash but just making it less powerful. Powerful enough to overcome momentum based obstacles like these, but not powerful enough to reach optional areas like the above mentioned one in Spring Yard.

it doesn’t have to be the spin dash itself that get’s nerfed either. Just simply make the higher/farther area higher or farther, to where you need more momentum to reach it?

So you’re saying that there is a degree of tension in using the spin dash, because you have to put yourself in a vulnerable state to activate it?

In a vacuum, I suppose that it correct. But it largely depends on how aggressive and threatening the enemy design is, and how many enemies there are.

Because if there are no enemies around, or if they take six years to attack you, then there really is no problem being “vulnerable” at all.

Makes sense.

Yeah, I used to be really into Classic Sonic for a number of reasons. These days however, I just find they can’t really hold my attention, nor can I stay invested in them because where the difficulty level appears to be.

In my personal opinion, that level is too low. But I recognize that’s just an opinion.

 

I started out doing it for Sonic 2 just a few days ago. I stopped after Mystic Cave, as I started to get bored.

I don’t remember if I felt much difference, tbh.

Not using spin dash doesn’t in itself make for a challenge. It just removes the possibility of certain challenges, or if certain challenges come up in the level design like the one mentioned in Spring Yard, it trivializes them.

But I don’t recall if I ran into any level design like that in 2 in the first place.

 

I’m sure in the end, this is just a matter of opinion, and just my personal experience, but I don’t really agree. Well, on paper it sounds right. But in practice…

It seems to me that kind of dropped the ball here after Sonic 2.

I’m getting into a different issue here now, and feel like I am making an issue over something that is trivial in nature. I don’t even really know where I’m going with this, just expressing how I feel. I must say…

I appreciate the 3K and Mania approach to entering special stages for making exploration feel more incentivized and forgiving. And I think that making the game require you to not take damage while having the visibility issues Classic Sonic is kind of infamous for at this point, which is kind of what the old system is asking of you, is contradictory. However, I also believe the new system kind of messed up a little bit.

Because in the previous games, you had to kind of pay attention these things because you needed to hold on to at least 50 rings to activate special stages. But since they’ve done away with that system….

Well, I personally don’t feel much reason to pay attention to that at all if I have even one just ring. And it’s not like it’s all that difficult to collect them if you drop them.

Also, I’ve played the Classics too many times. Now, at the very least when I’m playing the CW remake, I don’t often feel such tension when playing at least 1 and CD, even when going for special stages.

The “issue” I mentioned in this post is another thing I’d like to see addressed, btw. Bring back real incentive to hold on to rings besides a score bonus or an arbitrary mission system like that found in the Adventure titles.

I ran into some who’ve said that the drop dash might be literally worst than the spin dash in this area. I can’t say I don’t see where they are coming from.

Avoiding tedium is good, I think. And really, having to maintain momentum through the level to take advantage of it later in the level is in the end only one possible source of “tension” that Sonic can have. There are others that can exist.

I just think it’s a shame it’s been mostly neglected. I feel it fits Sonic’s gameplay very well, and is an element that I already find appealing in the cases where it is done.

But yeah.

 

Okay

Sorry about that. I forgot.

Also, will it show to everyone that I “quoted” them if I combine quotes from different comments?

Also, is there a way to make YouTube links play from specific points in the video at all?