SA2 is something I'm super torn on. I used to lament the loss of the hub worlds and more open levels from SA1 (and the latter in the classics), but I feel on the other hand it did a more speed focused gameplay in a very great way, so I still enjoy it for different reasons. The characterization and character writing is still my favorite in the games, and Sonic himself, from his in game model design to his actual animations and stylistic flair with them all come together to make that my favorite 3D representation of the character himself. I know the locales themselves are also polarizing due to them looking even more "realistic", but there are so many crazy locations that I don't see how that's actually a problem, since there are still lots of very cool fictional levels like Pumpkin Hill and all of the ARK stages and Eggman's base levels. It's not as artistically stylized, but the aesthetics of the levels themselves are still very strong. Basically, I guess my point is I too played the Genesis titles first as a kid. I played those, then I got a Dreamcast and then got Adventure 1, and then got Adventure 2 when it was released, and nothing about any of those ever divided me. If anything, I was probably happy that they were trying different things and each game had its own identity.
I played the Genesis titles through a PS2 emulator (real hardware though), and I gotta say, I enjoyed every minute. Was kind of a pain in the butt to have to hold Square (A button for Genesis) + Start to bring up the level select in Sonic 1 and 2 though, I had to use my right hand's thumb to press Start!
This is "The Sonic the Hedgehog Continuity Thread of Love and Timelines". We've derailed enough lol. Let's get back on track before the mods arrive.
This was sitting in the back of my head for a bit. How would you all place the first two Advance games? (A) Adventure1 -> Adventure2 -> Heroes -> ShadowGame -> Advance1 -> Advance2 -> Battle -> Advance3 (B) Adventure1 -> Adventure2 -> Advance1 -> Advance2 -> Heroes -> ShadowGame -> Battle -> Advance3 (C) Advance1 -> Advance2 -> Adventure1 -> Adventure2 -> Heroes -> ShadowGame -> Battle -> Advance3 There's obviously more combos than this, but I'd imagine these would be the most favored spots for them.
Being a shameless plugw***e, once more my timeline and an explanation of none of the above for me: Spoiler I have Sonic Advance with the other 'Station Square' games, due to the implied relation between its levels and Sonic Adventure and Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles. (Aforementioned implied relations) Effectively, Sonic and gang kind of hang about the area, perhaps awaiting Tails getting his medal and Chaos Emerald, until Sonic is dragged away by G.U.N. for the events of Sonic Adventure 2. I have Sonic Advance 2 before Sonic Heroes because, well, Cream the Rabbit. I also like to think the reason Knuckles was tricked into attacking Sonic is the same reason Team Rose are after him in the latter game: Metal Sonic tricked him by assuming Sonic's form, resulting in the boss fight seen in the former. But that's a headcanon, nothing evidencing it. Finally, Sonic Advance 3 closes the Adventure Era, can't really come before Sonic Battle, which can't go before Shadow the Hedgehog, which can't go before Sonic Heroes, etcetc.
Well I'm gonna take this moment to post my timeline again, since we all know for a fact it is the best timeline yet. There is still the problem of the Rivals series not being canon anymore, but you can't win them all. Spoiler: Classic Era Spoiler: Adventure Era Spoiler: Boost Era (accepting suggestions for a better name) Spoiler: Wisps Era
Not to be rude, but those all feel off to me. Personally, I always saw Advance as being the next game after Adventure 2, but with a gap of a few months between them after all the chaos on the ark. Sonic and friends have been chilling out for a while, when Eggman suddenly returns and is spotted on the coast. Sonic goes to investigate... Actually, lemme shamelessly plug my headcannon plot of Advance 1 here. Warning, it's long... After Adventure 2, and the death of Shadow, everyone parts ways, with Eggman silently disappearing as per usual. Things get quiet for a while, so Sonic decides to hang around in the "San Fransico Zone", with Amy tagging along, much to Sonic's dismay. Tails returns to Station Square in order to resume his usual routine, which leaves Knuckles to go back to his home in the sky. Rouge heads off to parts unkown, not to be seen for a while, as she trains to become a secret agent (Heroes). One day, while relaxing on San Francisco's coast (Neo Green Hill Zone- note the orange rails, realistic palm trees, paved highway, and street lamps and road signs (prototypes only) littered everywhere), Sonic is suddenly greeted by Amy, who got word that Eggman has raided a Secret Base owned by GUN in Central City, setting up operations for his newest scheme. Eggman's last known location was at the edge of the Neo Green Hill Zone, right at the foot of the Golden Gate Bridge (Radical Highway from SA2), so Sonic and Amy (yes, I'm assuming Knuckles and Tails aren't here yet) spring into action to try to intercept him (and maybe airboard for a few emeralds along the way ). Upon greeting Eggman, he flees across the bridge, prompting the duo to chase him (Egghammer Tank fight). After sending him packing, they follow him across the bridge and into Central City, breaking into the now Eggman controlled base and wreaking havoc in an attempt to slow Eggman down. But alas, it was a diversion to buy time, as Eggman is already moving onto phase 2 of his great plan, still a mystery to the heroes. However, they do learn that Eggman is on his way to Angel Island, so the two agree to race Eggman there and warn Knuckles. Following him into the outskirts of Central City, Sonic and Amy breach the Casino region, located in a dense forest (includes Night Babylon closest to Central City, Casino Paradise- the main attraction, and Luminous Forest deep in the undergrowth. Luminous Forest is located in the Mystic Jungle, which I can only assume is the next door neighbor to the Mystic Ruins). Conquering Eggman's traps, they cross over into the Mystic Ruins and find Tails, who gladly joins the party. Tails informs Sonic that Angel Island's last known position was to the north of the Mystic Jungle's snowcaps, so the three begin the long, cold trek through the mountains to try to cut Eggman off and beat him to Knuckles. Unfortunately, the 3 meet up with the doctor at the same time, so Eggman, thinking fast, tries to drown Sonic in the freezing water. Just as Sonic takes his last big breath, lo and behold, Knuckles trashes the Egg Spider, saving the heroes in the knick of time. Sonic tells Knuckles that Eggman is pursuing his island in search of something, and asks Knuckles why he's so far from home. Knuckles answers that the Master Emerald told him they were in trouble, so he came to help. Sonic, of course, gets a bad feeling, and asks Knuckles where the Master Emerald is now. In a surprising turn, Knuckles says he actually took the time to hide it this time, so it would be safe while he rushed to the heroes' aid. Sonic doesn't think it's enough, and assumes the prized gem is the treasure Eggman is seeking (Sonic Advance's bad ending shows Eggman with the emerald). So Sonic, Tails, Amy, and Knuckles all board the floating landmass in a race against time to see who can reach the emerald first. After taking the 3 into some hidden ruins in Angel Island's misty peaks, Knuckles heads down a secret passage to retrieve the Emerald. After a few minutes of foot-tapping waiting, Sonic and friends are approached from behind by the echidna, who assures them that the Master Emerald is safe and sound. However, coming up from the hidden passage is... also Knuckles, claiming his prized possession is gone, unsure how. Two echidnas face each other, frozen in shock. Immediately, Sonic deduces who the faker is, and an all out brawl with the imposter commences. After a tough fight, the imposter is overcome, revealed to be a Mecha Knuckles. A speaker in the robot squeals to life, announcing the voice of the mad doctor. Eggman explains that he built Mecha Knuckles based on Knuckles core data, allowing him to easily locate the Master Emerald in mere minutes. All he needed was to get Knuckles off the island, and luring Sonic into a life threatening situation was the hook. Eggman explains that to prove his superiority, he must also prove his dedication to his twisted dreams, saying he never leaves a job unfinished. As his maniacal laughter echoes against the stone walls, the entire passage begins to shake. Rushing outside, the heroes look on in horror as an Eggman rocket rises out of the canyon, ready to take off. Without hesitation, the 4 blaze off as fast as they can, in hopes to hitch a ride to before liftoff. Jumping in without a second to spare, they weave their way through the rocket's fuel tanks before they split off, stowing away in the ship's cargo hold (full of odd machine parts). It doesn't take long to realize Eggman is going to space, and they arrive at a secret satellite, likely constructed during Eggman's absence. After the ship's cargo is unloaded and hauled away, the 4 stealthily pursue Eggman to the main control room, where they realize the space station isn't just a satellite, but in actuality, a laser- not unlike a miniature Eclipse Cannon. They spot a large port, seemingly where the Master Emerald will be plugged into, and a massive hole in the satellite's ceiling (Cosmic Angel background), likely where the laser will charge and fire from. Confronting Eggman, and tearing apart the gravity defying Egg Snake, Eggman panics and flees, with the 4 heroes chasing after, Knuckles demanding to know where the Master Emerald is. Making their way out to the satellite's exterior, Eggman ambushes the group with two of his old Eggmobiles from way back in the day, which Sonic and Tails note as suspicious. Nonetheless, they make quick work of the contraptions, and corner Eggman on the final edge of the platform. Eggman brings out his "trump card", the Egg X, a versatile pod with many attack methods. After a drawn out fight that keeps the heroes on their toes, Eggman ultimately loses, and falls to the floor in defeat. The 4 celebrate, as they turn to find the Master Emerald and head home. However, the ground begins to shake (bad ending)... Eggman grins, and reveals he lured all 4 of them into a trap- the satellite is crumbling apart, and they have to make a choice. Finish him off, or safely escape. Eggman hops in the remains of his Eggmoblie and flies off the platform before Sonic can stop him. As the floor beneath the group begins to give way, they spot Eggman making a beeline- towards the moon. Suddenly, Sonic figures out Eggman's scheme- obtaining GUN Intel, using Mecha Knuckles to steal the Master Emerald, building a secret space station aimed directly at the moon like a weapon- Eggman is trying to finish destroying the moon after Sonic Adventure 2. Amy implores Sonic to go with them, but Sonic has other plans... having gathered all 7 chaos emeralds along the way, he transforms into Super Sonic, and prepares to pursue Eggman. Turning to the other 3, Sonic tells Tails and Amy not to worry if he doesn't come home that night, and blasts off without another word. As the floor finally gives way, Tails, Knuckles, and Amy race back to the Egg Rocket. Knuckles worries the Master Emerald will be lost in the wreckage, but Tails reassurs him, telling him that "Sonic's going to get it right now". The 3 board the rocket and safely make their way back towards Earth. Reaching the surface of the moon, Super Sonic quickly scours the dusty hills for Eggman, pondering how he intends to destroy the half-moon with the Cosmic Angel destroyed. As if to answer, Eggman suddenly zooms past Sonic in a giant blue Eggman Mech built from the strange parts shipped on the Egg Rocket, and powered by the Master Emerald itself, much like his original Doomsday mech. He taunts Super Sonic, saying that if he can't blow the moon up, he'll just tear it apart with his bare hands- at which point the mech's hands begin drilling away at the rocks below while Eggman rushes along- the Master Emerald expediting the process. Super Sonic doesn't put up with this as usual, and engages in one final battle with the mad doctor- the fate of the moon at stake. With just a few rings left in his possession, Super Sonic finally damages the mech enough to send it tumbling. Swiping the Master Emerald, he channels the power of all 7 Chaos Emeralds and the Master Emerald itself, to create a Super powered chaos control. Telling Eggman that he'll never get to finish this job, Super Sonic unleashes the blast, completely engulfing the moon. Watching from Angel Island, Tails, Knuckles, and Amy stare in wonder as the broken half moon turns aglow. After a blinding flash, the 3 see the moon, now completely repaired and back to the way it was pre Adventure 2. However, after waiting for a while, neither Sonic nor Eggman return, leaving the group to ponder their whereabouts (Good ending). Several days later (literally spelled out on screen lol), Tails is flying over the coast in the Tornado, after resuming his usual activities. However, longing for Sonic, he begins to stare into the clouds, almost expecting his best friend to suddenly return. Always one to make an entrance, a distant shimmer in the sky is revealed to be none other than Sonic, still in his Super state, returning home from parts unkown. While Eggman is once again MIA, the heroes finally rest easy, knowing that the world is once again fully at peace. So that's my headcannon plot of Advance 1. If anyone here actually reads this whole thing- you deserve a real life gold soleanna medal, cause I bet this too was tedious lol. This whole thing not only gives the game an actual plot, but also explains where and when this game takes place, as well as the presence of gameplay elements. The only thing people can counter is that the moon in the X Zone already appears whole, but Iizuka did say that after SA2, the moon rotated to show it's good side, so... Anyway, I'm done typing all this shit lol. Mobile isn't kind on the fingers. I'd love to hear what you all think, though chances are, no one will respond lol, so... TL:DR- Sonic leaves San Fransico Zone to save the Master Emerald and repair the moon.
The main question I have from all of this is "Why would Eggman want to destroy the rest of the moon?" It's certainly creative, but I'm kinda inclined to believe that this would take place before SA2 personally, not that there's evidence either way. There are a few reasons I'd say as much: Sonic & Co. are still in regions that are eerily similar to SA1 as pointed out by Sonic Loreposting Amy in particular has her SA1 moveset, while in SA2 it's much closer to what it might be in Heroes There's not much indication if any that Eggman's base is anything more than another Death Egg attempt Your post did bring something to mind though (which is a bit of a tangent, sorry). The fact that Eggman is so intrigued by the Eclipse Cannon in SA2 implies that the Death Egg didn't have weapons anywhere near that scale. Following it, we do see he presumably builds off that research or continues that line of thinking by creating the Final Egg Blaster in Battle and the satellite weapon in Unleashed. If the Death Egg doesn't have a mega laser of sorts, maybe the reason for his various space stations is to give him a tactical advantage. Having a station in orbit from which to send legions of robots to take over the world is a good idea honestly, and I imagine that's what the Death Egg was for. We do know that's what he seemingly does with the Death Egg 2 in Fighters (if you consider it canon).
With regards to that tangent, I just realized: it's kind of odd/funny if the Death Egg doesn't have a big laser. It's namesake, the Death Star, was scary largely because of its big laser. Not that being inspired by the Death Star means it needs to be able to do all the same things. Eggman's being intrigued by the Eclipse Cannon, for instance, is a fair point.
If there's no undeniable proof for the right place of some games in the timeline, the common sense tells us to order them from their release dates.
Guess what came out after SA2? Except as I mentioned, those don't exactly fit right, and most are kinda a stretch. Lemme elaborate on his points. Emerald Coast > Neo Green Hill: His connection is that both locations have beachs and forests. That's it. Firstly, Emerald Coast does not have a forest- it's a cliff area with waterfalls and a pond- like come on. Secondly, my connection to "San Fransico Zone" was in the literal paved roads, street lamps and road signs cut from the stage, orange handrails, and the giant fucking red bridge with suspension cables commonly seen around Central City. Final Egg > Secret Base: The outside area absolutely does not look like the Final Egg tower. City skyline =/= techno tower in the middle of a forest. Also, I'm not sure Secret Base is even officially said to be under Eggman ownership. Can someone verify this? Twinkle Park > Casino Paradise: I'll give him this, the castle in Advance does somewhat resemble Pleasure Castle, but the idea falls apart when you realize Casino Paradise is literally not an amusement park, unless you consider Casino Night from Sonic 2 to be one as well. Ice Cap > Ice Mountain: They're both "snowy mountain" stages, what do you expect? His link here is literally "they both come after colorful stages", which uh, so does Ice Paradise. And Twinkle Snow. And Planet Freon from Ristar for that matter. It's just a thing Sega liked to do, what's your point? Marble Garden > Angel Island: In all honesty, I actually have nothing here. The zone takes place somewhere on Angel Island. The mountainous region is the obvious choice here. Launch Base > Egg Rocket: Get real. Firstly, the two zones look nothing alike. Secondly, you don't think after Sonic 3, Knuckles wouldn't purge his island of literally every single trace of Eggman from during his stay? After Sonic 3, the only zones that logically should still be around are: Angel Island Zone Hydrocity Zone Marble Garden Zone Ice Cap Zone Mushroom Hill Zone Sandopolis Zone Lava Reef Zone Hidden Palace Zone Sky Sanctuary seemed like it was destroyed, but after appearances in recent days, it seems to have indeed survived the Death Egg's assault. The point is, there's no reason why Knuckles would willingly leave all the Eggman zones untouched after what he did. If I sound pissed off... I am, in a superfluous way. I won't lie, I read that Twitter thread and just kinda winced. None of those even remotely made sense (mine are a bit of a stretch too, but really) and often contradict the purpose of the thread (to prove Advance comes after SA1). Often times, it sounded more like it was trying to convince me that Advance comes between 3 and SA1, which, uh... explain that one to me. :/ The whole thing felt really disconnected and haphazard, and I'm not sure how it so quickly convinces y'all of the point it's trying to make. Did wanna address this though. On the one hand, you're absolutely right, the characters play as they did in SA1. On the other hand... except Sonic. Sonic is an amalgamation of Japanese SA1, where his running sprites hail from and SA2, where his moveset originates. He has the tumble, somersault, slide, and kick flip from SA2, not to mention the ability to grind (as well as Amy), when he didn't pick up this skill until said game. Now you could make the case that he actually learned the skill in Advance, then carried it over to Adventure 2, but then his soap shoes present a new problem. Why would he learn to grind rails, get slick soap shoes dedicated for the activity, then just... ditch them? The way I see it, he got the soap shoes while learning the trick (being able to fall off rails), then once he got the hang of it, switched back to his favorite old kicks, since they worked just fine (no longer falls off rails). I dunno. No matter how you slice it, I just can only see Advance occurring in the quiet downtime after Shadow's death and saving of the world. If anyone's got any other points, feel free to counter. I'm actually interested to hear.
It does have a big laser tho. Two in fact, in its "eyes". Eggman uses them to reignite Lava Reef in S3K, and to destroy a distant star in Sonic Battle.
Could just be super heaters or something. They don't fire anything, they just turn on and boom- hot. Not the same death egg.
It looks more like it's shooting two beams to me. They even animated them coming out of its "pupils". If it was just some lights Eggman turned on it should have been instantaneous. Speed of light. Besides, what would the Death Egg have "super heaters" for? Its "eyes" are a reference to the Death Star's beam shooter thingie (whatever it is called) and look just like it, so I would think they're supposed be the same thing.
It could be the Death Egg's weapons are significantly weaker than the ARKs. It first off a blast and basically reignites a volcano, versus the ARK which detonates half a Moon. Of course, the ARK is being powered by six Chaos Emeralds, so we can't really gauge the power levels between them... And we go over a beach and through cliffside areas. As for the forest, I don't remember giant caverns in Green Hill Zone, I guess Sonic Mania's version must be a completely different, unrelated Green Hill Zone... Considering we don't go out of the tower, and there's a giant glowing circle of what looks like buildings at the base of aforementioned tower you seem to be ignoring... Also, there's a few elements from Metropolis Zone there, indicating relations to Robotnik's construction mentality. Honestly, Casino Palace doesn't really qualify as a casino either, unless I've always missed the gambling mechanics that are literally a requisite for the term "casino"...? casino /kəˈsiːnəʊ/ noun a public room or building where gambling games are played. The point is that it's a continued thematic connection to Sonic Adventure's level layout. Ah yes, the orange mountainous region looks nothing like the orange mountainous region. I fully agree with you on the Knuckles removing elements of Robotnik from his island, hell I think it's what's happening in Sonic the Hedgehog 3's portion of his adventure: go through and wreck Carnival Night, and especially when he removes the supports, floods the base and causes a portion of Launch Base to explode. Drop into Mushroom Hill, where he relaxes after destroying the base, that cutscene occurs with bomb, rest occurs. But considering that there'd still be a basic infrastructure there, Robotnik will want to launch from as high a point as possible and what's higher than Angel Island, Knuckles has been off island for a small while if we only factor in Sonic Advance, AND the sheer size of the island means Knuckles can't really ensure there isn't a problem somewhere on there (also considering the Egg Carrier managed to sneak up and destroy the Master Emerald at one point...), we can hardly say it's outside the realm of possibility Robotnik managed to sneak some construction badniks onto Angel Island to begin construction on the Egg Rocket and was distracting Knuckles throughout. I also have to ponder the irritation you felt when Archie brought the Launch Base Zone back in the modern era intact... Ah yes, as opposed to your "it's a red bridge, therefore it must take place in the Central City region!" There's a red suspension bridge in China, the Yichang Bridge, am I to assume Sonic Advance takes place in Chun-nan as a result? If I'm coming off as overly snarky, it's because I am. You're acting like it's a completely inconceivable notion that perhaps the areas might be in the same locales as the Sonic Adventure levels, despite the shared level traits, simply because they don't look exactly alike. We're not saying it's exactly alike, we're saying there's shared traits that imply a connection. See that keyword there: imply? Then you go ahead and say the red suspension bridge implies it to be in the Central City area: I don't see a city in that background, like the levels taking place on those bridges, so am I to assume you're wrong for it? You're fully justified to theorise and speculate, it's an otherwise accurate connection, just don't act like we're idiots for thinking "oh, there's some thematic connections between two particular games, maybe there's further connection!" Otherwise, ironically, the Moon. The Final Boss takes place on it and it's otherwise intact, though it's not really much of a deciding factor since the Moon has been intact since it was blown up. Personally, I headcanon that Sonic used Chaos Control to fix the Moon, so it's not really a point for me, but 'canon' has it that the Moon has turned to keep the intact half facing the world, so it depends on what you think of the Moon's current status...
Even if both games take place in the same areas (which is kind of a stretch, but could be), this is no indication that one happens right after the other. It is usual in this franchise to return to previous places, like Green Hill and Chemical Plant. Besides, it is also usual to see places that resemble others but are just different locations, like the zones in Sonic 4 episode 1 in relation to Sonic 1.
And 3 of the zones in Episode II resemble Sonic 2 zones: Sylvania Castle -> Aquatic Ruin Zone Oil Desert -> Oil Ocean Zone Sky Fortress -> Sky Chase (Act 1) and Wing Fortress (Acts 2 & 3)
Indeed, but I'm keeping them grouped together otherwise, since all four have Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Amy as their primary characters. It can't go before Sonic Adventure, since that's the first time in a while Sonic and Amy encounter one another, in her own words, and Sonic Advance 2 must come before Sonic Heroes, due to Cream being introduced, meaning the first two games are between Sonic Adventure and Sonic Heroes, which would put them in close proximity to Sonic Adventure 2, it's just a matter of where: I chose before Sonic Adventure 2 since Sonic Adventure and Sonic Shuffle both had all four running around together. Sonic Pinball Party comes after since Sonic is wearing his Soap Shoes at that point, thus 'leads into' Sonic Adventure 2. (I'm fully aware it's stock art, but hey, why look a gift horse in the mouth?) It also gives me the hilarious idea that Sonic Heroes' entire plot started because Metal Sonic was salty about losing a pinball tournament.
We shouldn't forget that Onyx Island (Angel Island from the Future) does have machinery lying around that's in a state of disrepair, particularly in Death Yard Zone. Granted, that game is dubiously canon at this point (I'd argue it still is personally) however Mania likewise shows that the machinery set up in Lava Reef Zone wasn't totally destroyed. Knuckles may have gone about shutting stuff down when he was in pursuit of the surviving Egg Robo, but clearly, he didn't destroy or eliminate it completely. Also to be clear, I don't entirely agree with everything Sonic Loreposting posits, but there's a lot of merit to level connections that he's been pointing out. I'll concede that Rapheal's point is a valid though; it does make sense they could revisit later on. Personally, it's always felt to me that it makes sense that Sonic is still exploring that area in Advance 1 and hasn't branched out to areas seen in SA2, but then again there's evidence to suggest that Advance 2 takes place in or around the Mystic Ruins (Another of SLP's theories). I've always kinda seen it as SA1 > Advance 1 > SA2 > Advance 2 > (Maybe Pinball Party, I like BlackHole's headcanon) > Heroes > Battle > Advance 3
