Dust Hill and Mystic Cave Discussion 2019

Indeed, AT MOST, what we can say is that the recent prototypes SUPPORT the idea that DHZ=MCZ, but saying definitively that it is the case is quite foolharty knowing what we know about the development process, language barriers, demands... yes, I'd say it's as foolish as just saying that sezert level = DHZ BECAUSE of the same lack of conclusive evidence. After all, there is a lot about the game development process we do not know about, as much as we HAVE learned, and now do know.

Saying "DHZ = MCZ" DEFINITIVELY, IMO, opens us up to the risk of accepting a lower threshold for evidence when it comes to declaring something fact. Not the first time around these parts that we've let (even if temporarily) faulty theories get some degree of acceptance, how about that old "rock = master emerald" theory about the breakable (though not implemented as such yet) rock in Hidden Palace (before the Craig Stitt interview disproved it, was it?)?

IMO, it is (just a touch) irresponsible of DRX to say on the H-P.org release page that the title card definitively proves the thing, as opposed to saying it strongly supports the connection.

 

Yeah, that's one of the recollective accounts, the other one being Brenda Ross being all "yeah sure whatever" about it. I don't think either account can be treated as hard evidence so long after the fact though, not against hard data (as scrupulous as in-progress prototype data can be), not to mention the time travel map concept art.

I think it's fair to say that we have more supporting evidence for Dust Hill = Mystic Cave than against at this point, even if it can't be conclusively said so owing to the flighty nature of the game's development.

 

Well hang on, no, I don't think it is fair to say that. To me, the account of a level designer at the time specifically pointing out between two levels that the desert level was Dust Hill, is far more proof than a few level cards and wrong links in level selects. Do you have anything else I've missed?

 

The name Dust Hill could have been there by mistake or they will still coming up with a name for MCZ at the time.

 

I think we must stop this flamewar and talk about Mystic Cave and the Desert Level, and forget about that name Dust Hill. It's a lot of wasted energy and we might never know the truth.
We should cross a Past post from Sonic CD and travel back to the offices of STi at the time the game was under development.
We will never know just from the roms and the artwork alone.

 

I literally said that two posts up.

 

Thank you for making this thread.

What doesn't make sense is that none of the developers in the interviews seem to remember Mystic Cave originally being named Dust Hill. Surely they would have recalled this whenever it was named as such so late into development? When the developers were given an option of both Mystic Cave, and a desert zone, the developers explicitly pointed at the desert zone rather than Mystic Cave. Hirokazu Yasuhara himself did this, linking to the mockup after being sent images of both Mystic Cave and the desert level.


Another thing; many have pointed to the timeline to show that Emerald Hill has collapsed due to mining. I don't think the timeline is going to be able to give us an accurate depiction of whether this was a crumbling GHZ/EHZ, considering Metropolis also has a lacking depiction.

However assuming it is, the argument of a crumbling GHZ = MCZ can work both ways:

Spoiler

Assuming the zone in the mockup is Dust Hill Zone, it can be seen that Dust Hill is crumbling like the mockup.
In fact, the foreground appears to be something like this:

When Robotnik "dusted away" Emerald Hill Zone, the vegetation was destroyed, leaving everything to blow away like dust. The dust bowl in the U.S. during the 1930's is a good representation of what happens without vegetation. Another thing I've noticed is that Emerald Hill's flower parallax in the background looks similar to the receding sand in the background of Dust Hill.

 

Whats funny about this debate, is that I am actually in the process myself of renaming some of the zones in my fan-game. I have kept a lot, but there are 3 or 4 that I am renaming due to them not fitting anymore.

I could totally see this being the reasoning for a lot of things in Sonic 2 as well. I have a zone originally called "Drill Base" because the composer named the MP3 file this after looking at a concept of the zone, which, originally had drills. Well, they were removed and the art was revamped and ultimately went a different direction. I have kept this name in the game for a majority of its development because franky, its just a name and the least important thing at the moment of development. Now that I am nearing the end, I am changing these title cards. So yeah, that's my mind dump.

 

So are we all gonna have to repeat here once again the whole discussion that led to the conclusion that the wiki pages had to be edited?
EDIT: Old posts have now been merged.

Here's the digest:

Everything so far (every prototype/document/magazine) either has always pointed towards Dust Hill being just Mystic Cave or towards Dust Hill not being the desert level, except for:

• Brenda saying it was Dust Hill (but in the very end unveiled that she had never actually called it Dust Hill herself)
• Yasuhara saying it was Dust Hill while presenting the first "Dust Hill" Google results (which was debunked by himself when he actually found his documents)

It really is that simple.

 

ICEknight, right since more than a decade ago. No sarcasm intended.

I just think Dust Hill is a stupid name from the time when the game was based around time travel. That's all.
Please, don't bother the developers anymore.

 

Are you referring to the overworld maps?

 

Yeah.

 

Dust Hill is so obviously Mystic Cave now, but this argument will probably persist forever anyways. Too much time and investment taken to it's existence from this corner of the fanbase, lol.

The moment the Sand Shower name dropped was the true moment it was over.

 

Where is Yasuhara changing his mind? I must have missed that, and it's not on the wiki.

Also, I have to take issue with this:

How, in any world, does the team calling the final zone 'Final Zone' and 'Genocide' being inappropriate point in any way to the possibility of them calling a cave level 'Dust Hill'? That's just ridiculous.

 

Hi, can we not have an edit war on the wiki please - ta.

 

Saying that points towards the idea of them picking names that may have not been quite as apt as they'd hoped.

And sure, naming your cave something like that seems like a stretch! S'probably why it got a name change, after all. lol

 

Final Zone IS apt though. And Genocide City, while inappropriate, is arguable as to its aptitude. Dust Hill for a Cave level is not even remotely explainable.

 

I don't think there is an "edit war" going on, actually. The new changes were just reverted once and they were changed back to its current non-fanfiction state... and that was it.

 

Caves can be dusty, I imagine. I mean, no one goes in them (..until they do).

And even then, there's that idea that it could've referred to 'dusting' ala being bombed, leaving the remains of the area to be crumbled underground; if we followed through with the Yasuhara documents. Yasu seemed to like to associate stranger words with the themes-- 'genocide' for a cyber city being a good example.

As for the 'hill' part, well there's it's ties to the other timelines as an associative word. That and Yasu and co just seemed to really like the word 'hill'.

Again it's good to acknowledge that following the thread that DHZ = MCZ, the name changed. So at some point they realized it wasn't working and thus replaced it. Any commentary on how it doesn't work can be used as reason for the argument. lol

 

We didn't need the new topic with the circus title, by the way. The discussion already went on for days in the other topic, so perhaps splitting those posts would be a more productive thing than starting everything all over again.
EDIT: Old posts have now been merged.