Josh and IF bring up a point that has been really urking me with this game. I'm fine with a character, dialouge, plot driven Sonic game. I don't mind seeing all of the characters interact with one another and trying to develop the world and story a bit. But the things is, it's gonna take a lot of effort to get me to take it seriously. And this game's attempts at trying to find the right tonal balance for Sonic aren't gelling with me at all. From the out of place constructivist styled UI and Graphic Design, trying so hard to create an image of oppression and resistance. To the cheesy shonen style narrative they're going with, having some entity that's "Stronger than the main character", forcing him to break limits and eventually overcome it. That's so...not Sonic. At least not the Sonic they've been trying to push this whole time. This could have been an interesting concept. Not the fact that Eggman succeeds, but the fact that he now has control over Sonic's world. He can sculpt and warp it in any way he sees fit! It's a wonderful opportunity to flesh out the world, by using the environments to demonstrate how beautiful and bizzare it is, and how it contrast with Eggman's own bizzare creativity. Less, "Space Ports" and "Weapons Depot", and more Carnivals, Propaganda Machines, Museums chronicling his excellence. (Stuff Sonic Mania did really well). Planet Wisp, to me, is still one of the most fantastic Modern Sonic levels, fuck it, Sonic levels ever. They establish the plot of the game real early on, and they also try to get you acquainted with the Wisp by having you mess around with their abilities. You get to Planet Wisp and the environment subtly transitions from a colorful, spacious, alien landscape, to a boxy, dual tone, construction site. The background carefully goes in and out of showing you bits of the landscape, and as you get further into the level you can see the tractor beam restricting the planet. The camera even pans up just so you can see the chain. The danger the Wisp are in is now properly conveyed. And you actually care, because you like the Wisp. They're such a neat mechanic that let you explore more of the game. So now the motive for saving them is perfectly established. This is all complimented with a minimalistic, melancholy musical piece. No cheery synths or poppy drums like the rest of the game, but string swells and pianos that help really set in stone, that things are getting a bit more serious. Absolutely, beautiful. That stage left such an impact on me, if nothing else because it was such a tonal contrast from everything else. Sonic Team, CAN do this stuff well. They're more than capable of it. But this...this just feels so (mind the pun), forced. Like now I have to care about the world being corrupted, because I'm already seeing it happen. I have to join the resistance, because the world is already screwed. I have to care about Sonic's turmoil because I saw him lose. And I have to be excited about it because I get to work alongside him. But where's the buildup? What establishes my reason for caring about this world other than the fact that Eggman is a bad guy? Why should I care about Sonic's struggle to win when I already know he probably will? Why should I care about recycled hill being in danger for the 20th time? Why should I take any of this seriously? Maybe I shouldn't. But then why try to establish motive, and create context if none of it actually matters anyway? Nothing they've shown off about the story so far makes me want to care. Maybe I'm being too critical, but this is totally out of left field. They make such a ridiculous premise in one game (Eggman wants to suck the planets energy to power a robot or something), and now in the next canonical game that alleged same world he's actually conquered. and I'm supposed to be what? Shocked? Surprised? Intrigued? Well...I'm not. I'm just kind of underwhelmed.
Gotta be honest with ya, eventhough my recent posts towards Forces have been somewhat negative... I don't think I'm gonna hate this game. In fact, there are some things that I do like about Forces: I like it's presentation, not as attractive as the previous Boost games, but still; I actually like the music (I'm in love with Green Hill's theme, believe it or not); I like the concepts and themes of the stages, like the "dying" Green Hill; I like the concept of the OC (I was hyped when it was first revealed); and I'm particularly interested in the story. I'm also one of the VERY few people who isn't really bothered with the whole stage reuse thing, but I do understand why most are getting tired of it. + - (green hill should be in every sonic game fite me) My biggest concern, however, is the gameplay. As a huge fan of Colors and Generations, Forces really seems to have wattered down the Boost gameplay. I don't know, but it feels a lot more slower to me, especially on the 2D sections. It also doesn't help that the levels so far look incredebly linear, last barely 60 seconds (regardless of the demo), and have almost nothing going on with them. And if that's the tutorial level, then it pales in comparison to the tutorial levels of Colors, Generations, and probably even Unleashed (since I really haven't played the latter). I don't have a lot to say about the Avatar, since the full game will come out soon, but so far, it's execution wasn't the best. I feel that its customization is somewhat limited, as each race don't really have any sort of relevant ability that separate from each other, as well as the "unique abilities" themselves leave much to be desired. I have the same thoughts about their gameplay. It just feels like a slower, boost-less version of Modern Sonic, that is full of enemies that don't do nothing, and many gimmicks that are out of place or are unnecesary; Space Port being the worst offender of the latter, as one part of the stage has a path full of springs that can be skipped by using the grappling hook on those sphere thingies (I don't what they are called), but regardless of which way you went you still end up in the SAME PATH. Why are those things even there? You could just take them out and there would be no difference. (I will admit that I did find the mid-cutscene quite charming, it reminded me of Uncharted.) I don't have anything to say about Classic Sonic or the Tag Team stages. I was actually excited and optimistic when this game was first announced, and I continued that way up until E3, when my view on Forces started to change... It also sort of changed once I joined Retro. (Seriously, what have you guys done to my brain after being 4 months around you?) Like I said a few posts back, this game will not be a day-one purchase for me, but I will likely buy it once the mods start catching my attention, like what I did with Lost World, and maybe I could be wrong and actually have fun with the game. But if not, then I will probably look at it the same way as the previously mentioned Lost World: Just an "ok" Sonic game, but one that I would probably not come back to very often. Also, at this point I'm starting to get sick about the "Sonic Forces Defense Squad" (not you, SuperSnoopy).
So basically, because we whined about a 60 minute timer on the demo, the West isn't getting a demo at all because it's too much work to take out the timer and they'd rather we buy the game if we want to play a full level. Source
I mean, people figured out how to play the PS4 demo in english anyway, so it's moot due to region-free systems nowadays. It's pretty much saying "well if you're going to be so pissed about a limited demo then just buy the damn game" Considering only the Avatar level has any real length past the timer and even then that's not much, the timer's kind of superfluous for the most part and an arbitrary attempt of trying to hide the cards in their hand without giving away too much. Which is really fucking annoying in less than two weeks from release.
I may not understand the difference between Japanese acceptance of a demo and Western acceptance over something over something so asinine as a time limit to already disgustingly short levels, but regardless of different sensibilities, it's still leaving a lot of people with a bad taste. It's not 1991, you can't not expect people to see this and access this and respond by saying "But we only expected Japanese people to play this." Although I don't even think the time limit is as unappealing as everything else seen so far
Possibly what annoys me most about the babbling of the characters is that its all tell no show. . You don't actually see them doing anything in the background like rushing into the big ship set piece at the end of the stage or passing Espio's team. They're just arbitrarily somewhere off screen doing something. The way they are now adds nothing to the game and would be an improvement just to remove them. Also the stage is short as shit with barely tangible 3D segments and nothing in the way of alt routes like we all expected. The entire game must be like this, so either there's a lot of stages to make up for it or we're looking at a sub 3 hour game. The replayability factor looks next to nonexistent.
Yeah, this looks pretty dull. As expected. With Mario Odyssey getting perfect scores, Sonic is getting an absolute hammering.
Super late on this but Holy Christ at that one minute timer on the demo. Like are they trying to make this game fail? And not coming to the West? Where Sonic is most popular? Sega you're making it impossible for people to want your game. I remain forever the optimist but seriously this is getting 5/10s in just over a week or so. Any higher than that and I'll be beyond surprised.
I'll put it simple: if you read the thread "Why do you like Sonic?", you won't find any of the things people love from the franchise present in Forces, except maybe the least relevant ones or, better said, the ones not related to Sonic being a videogame franchise ("I love the characters" is valid for any kind of story, for example, not just for videogame plots). The most evident thing is those prequel comics being the most interesting thing from the game, which make quite a good use of the characters' personalities and backgrounds, even if it is to a so little extent; beyond that, the videogame starts to happen (gameplay, design philosophy, the same characters present in the comics being a nuisance...) and everyone's disappointed at the very least. If people loving the boost games (I don't except for Generations), people loving the wisps, people loving the anime style of the Adventure era, etc,.are pissed off thanks to this brand new game. There's no excuse. Yeah, some of you may play it and find it playable enough to not hate it, but that's all. Tell me the whole story in a comic and make a better game. All in all, fuck yeah, Omega! I loved that robot so much I could ignore it was a replacement for Gamma in a game I didn't really like (I didn't know the worst was yet to come when playing Heroes). I wonder if the animal inside it is conscious and chose to not go out to become the Egg-Dalek.
After seeing Forces go further on the worst excesses of 3D Sonic games than any post-SA1 installment before it (according to Retro), I think that this set of guidelines is in order to keep Sonic Team on the straight and narrow, and hopefully allow for a game that will make Retro happy :v: : 1. No dash panels 2. No automation that isn't influenced by prior player input 3. No 2D sections whatsoever 4. No levels that are copied from prior games, or which look too similar to anything featured in Sonic Generations or Sonic Mania 5. Tails and Knuckles must appear as playable characters, using Sonic's gameplay as a template, and all characters must also use the same level structure. 6. If alternate characters get their own campaigns, a majority of levels must be unique to the character so as to avoid repetition.
I've argued this elsewhere and people don't seem to get it. When a company releases a demo for one region and not for another, there is usually some logic behind it*. It's just two weeks wait for the second best Sonic Game we will see this year. *In this case I have a feeling SoJ is trying to save face in the Japanese market after how well Sonic Mania did globally.
Agreed with this. Then they already fell at the first hurdle, because interest in Sonic as a series in that region has proven themselves to be historically anemic. Iizuka in interviews has talked about how people in Japan are interested in the story and custom hero element; but that won't mean shit if hardly anyone over there cares about the game enough to actually buy it, as has been the case for the past two decades' worth of Sonic games.
I was kind of thinking about the whole Phantom Ruby having power over space and time thing, and I came up with a pretty amusing theory. What if Eggman didn't build his entire army? He just used the Ruby to pull resources from other dimensions where the stuff was already there. Meaning that for each massive Death Egg Robot that we see in the trailer, there's a dimension where Sonic 2's Eggman ran off to get in his final weapon, and it was missing. Need a working Egg Dragoon? Pull it from another dimension so that when that universe's Eggman went to go grab it in Unleashed, it was gone. It could even explain why Space Port looks so much like Chemical Plant, Eggman got a bit theft-happy with his Phantom Ruby. (It would also explain why Modern Sonic didn't stop him earlier. The whole takeover was too sudden when normally even Eggman needs time to get resources together. You know that Sonic wouldn't have just sat on his rear and let things get this bad before putting in even a token effort to take down Eggman.) My guess is that the game's going to end with Eggman losing despite all of the resources he's been "borrowing", and realizing that not only did he lose in this reality, but his antics essentially screwed himself out of nearly any possible victory he would have had in other realities. EDIT: Only thought of this after posting, but it would also be funny meta-wise as an explanation why the game seems to have so many recycled assets.
Oh yea, and how are japenese players even suppose to get a decent taste of the story from a 1 minuet demo anyway, let alone the custom characters?
Hi, guys and gals. I just got back from playing Super Mario Odyssey and I feel fan-fucking-tastic but that's not a surprise because every preview, demo, impression, etc. told me it was gold and, low and behold, it is. Anyway, I bring this up here because: Classic Mario is in this game. And he plays 1:1 like he did on the NES. Oh, and he ain't from another dimension, he's just Mario when he turns 2d after going through certain warp pipes. Can we just appreciate this non-explanation for a moment? In this full fledged 3d game (and it is fully 3d) there are small mini 2d sections where you play as Classic Mario. Seamlessly integrated into the game not just as fanservice or padding but as part of the level design while cementing the legacy of the older games plus bringing in new gimmicks/challenges not found in the older games. Just think about that for moment.
What's funny is Mario was never their mascot. Mr. Floppy for the Famicom Disk system is the only mascot Nintendo has ever had, iirc. That said, I really loved the detailed backgrounds in that full stage video. The real shame is there's disproportionately more scenery than level geometry you're allowed to interact with. They could have easily carved in a few more paths in the middle of all that, and the stage would be better for it.
Just watched Darkspine's completed run of Modern Green Hill (or whatever amazingly creative name they are giving these stages). I appreciate that the 60 Second limit wasn't intended for western audiences but was there really any point considering the level could easily be finished in 1 minute 30 without any real effort? If anything it gave the impression that the level might be longer than it was, I expected them to have some amazing second half of the level hidden behind the timer... I really hope the later levels have a bit more to them as everything we have seen so far has been half-arsed. If I am honest I'm pretty gutted at the way Forces has turned out. The boost/racing platformer style of gameplay was always my favourite for 3D Sonic and I think with a little refinement it could have been incredible, but Sonic Team seem to have taken 20 steps back. Unleashed Daytime stages were clunky and linear but not even half as bad as this. Unfortunately I can imagine Sonic Team seeing the bad reception (preemptive I know, but c'mon, we all know it is coming) and blaming it on the gameplay style rather than their god awful level design and scrapping it altogether. These three are a must in future for Modern Sonic games, leave 2D to the Mania guys! However I will be surprised if it happens, these three things are pretty much Sonic Team's crutch at the moment.
Yeah, that's the thing about this game. It ranges to mediocre at best. Last I checked, mediocre isn't enough to sell a product. At this point, I think the game is 'What you see is what you get'. You don't sell your restaurant's flagship dish by saying, "It doesn't taste offensive, it's just not good!". Also, as far as dash panels go, I don't think they're level design sin, just often used in the wrong way. They can be used as obstacles, I can even think of some path designs that could benefit from them. And I'm being pretty generous with this "mediocre" thing. Boost gameplay isn't even my thing, I just respect some of the design that went into some of them. I feel something can be learned from Sonic Team's R&D.
