He does not have the cutscene at the start of the game either, hence the missing cutscene. S3&K is a pretty rough game in the Knuckles route =P. I genuinely believe Sonic 3 Complete has colored a lot of experiences on this forum.
Oh, I see what you mean now. Eh. I'm pretty sure most of us have been playing S3&K since long before S3C happened. And I've never done a full S3C playthrough.
As I said Acknowledging that not everyone has had it so bad, my point is just that in such little time with Mania, I personally have run into many embarrassing moments (for a dev) that drowns the same comparison to my first 6 weeks of Sonic 3.
S3K is the only game little kid me ever played where he noticed the glitched HUD in the very first stage (literally one second into gameplay) and just chose to ignore it lol. He also noticed that Knuckles in-game palette was different than his cutscene palette, to which I remember my younger self being really weirded out by yellow shoes. Also remembering the Egg Robo turning into Robotnik in Flying Battery, and I think I even managed to see Robotnik in Mushroom Hill Zone as Knuckles way back when I first played somehow, never could replicate it again but it was neat at the time. I also remember Knuckles being unable to jump off of underwater objects properly or functionally because I spent most of my time with S3K playing as Knuckles, and this was a pretty big issue = P. The biggest Sonic 3 stupidity I ran into was accidentally level wrapping via the camera. As an adult I understand why this bug exists and why it's not actually a big issue, but as a kid I remember looking down for a while, jumping, and then freaking out because holy crap what just happened? Things like that kinda plague the old games, largely due to their hardware. Nobody's first 6 weeks of Sonic 3 are gonna be buggy because nobody remembers their first 6 weeks of that game in clarity unless they have literally not played it up until recently, nor is anyone gonna vividly remember the glitches they ran into when they were younger. There are entire literary and psychological theories surrounding this in academia, fascinating subject. Hell what I just listed I had to rake my memory for! The last one I remember vividly:When Big Arms grabbed Super Sonic and took all of his rings. That glitch scared the shit out of me when I was younger. Ah, good times...
The bug that crashes the game is a different one than what I'm referencing - I've never had that bug, and don't know how to reproduce it, so I simply didn't include it. The music problem with ice blocks in Press Garden doesn't crash the game, and restores the music when you transform into Super Sonic, get invincibility, or complete the zone; it seems to have been fixed with the latest patch. This line especially baffles me, because S3K is far glitchier than S3. It's clear that Knuckles wasn't tested in the Sonic 3 levels very much, and Tails wasn't tested in the Sonic & Knuckles levels very much; and basically every "fix" the S&K ROM applies introduces a new bug. I'm not saying that S3K is unfairly buggy compared to Mania; on the contrary, S3K has the excuse of being on much weaker hardware and therefore needing to take quite a few shortcuts to run effectively. Mania on the other hand shouldn't be as buggy as it is.
Knuckles wasn't tested in much of anything tbh. He's easily the buggiest character in S3K in general. The byproduct of a cramped dev schedule I guess. Even then it's not like it's unplayable as Knuckles or anything, but since I used him a lot I had to deal with a lot of....things with him. That being said I do agree Mania probably shouldn't have had as many issues as it did on launch but for their first commercial game (commercial in the sense that it wasn't a remake or port) I think the Mania team pushed out a remarkably good product.
Has anyone seen Son of a Glitch's video of Mania yet? [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKfDxm-vkec[/youtube]
I hate to ask again, but I didn't get a reply/response since my last message and, seeing the content in DigitalDuck's message, I thought it appropriate: Any chance of the Sonic Mania Post-Release Bugs/Fixes/Suggestions thread (here) being re-opened? I think it would be better to have all of this in one place, and as I recall, the only reason it was initially locked was due to the wait for the upcoming 'Day 1' patch. As the initial patch has been released, I don't see too much of a problem in resuming the reporting of potential issues that could be patched in subsequent updates.
I saw that one, and I've been useing the glitch to get sonic to knuckle's path to get an extra big ring ever since.
A few more things: I notice that Super Tails has an increased jump height, and can't smash through breakable walls without rolling. The first makes sense (despite being a change to how it worked in S3K), the second doesn't. Also this: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE-3_o7XFrg[/youtube]
I dunno. I don't recall the getting stuck in walls when running fast glitch being as prevalent in S3&K as in S3, or any S3&K level having the infamous insta kill on vertical scrolling bug from Tails' IceCap in S3 (the only thing that stopped me from beating Tails' story in S3 as a kid), or any Super character in S3&K ever getting hurt by a boss ala S3's Big Arm. How does that not make sense? If the S3&K incarnation of Super Tails (who is supposed to be more powerful thanks to the Super Emeralds) isn't able to break walls without rolling, I would think neither would be the Mania one.
Meanwhile in S3K, you can warp back to a previous level, corrupt your save files, and crash the game so hard your console switches regions. Granted, the last one can't happen by accident. The S3K incarnation of Super Tails (who is supposed to be more powerful thanks to the Super Emeralds) can't jump any higher than normal; it's clear that Mania's Super Tails has had a bit of a buff (possibly in exchange for the flickies), but it sticks out moreso now that he's the only character who can't break walls while Super without rolling.
Sonic 1 2013 and Sonic 2 2013 give Super Tails a higher jump as well, although it also lets Super Tails run through walls without rolling. However, Sonic's Flame Shield dash cannot break walls in those games. Then again, you can only really care so much about secrets within a game.
You just listed off your memories to provide some argument and then said "Oh by the way your memories don't count". I know that in Sonic 3 I had to reset the level in its 4th zone due to the walls in CNZ. I do not know if that was my first playthrough or not. I do know that in Mania it was my first playthrough; I had to reset the level in its 2nd zone. I know I was stuck in Mania's walls on my first playthrough as Tails, and on my first playthrough as Knuckles. I know that in my first week of Mania, the music was breaking on average once every 2 days, since I remarked on it. It was getting embarrassing for me, getting a friend to play split-screen. Very first run of the first act of PC Sonic Mania, music breaks again. This is all stuff that happened near straight away, not all the stuff that has happened in the short time since buying the game. Nor am I bothering with the visual hiccups like Knuckles' boss palette or GHZ's boss background trees. You can even disregard the comparison. Pretending Sonic 3 doesn't exist, I was still shaking my head and saying to my housemate "This, borderline, has a few too many bugs for release." You might refer to psychological theories but I can tell you for all the game-breakers we now know in S3&K (my favourite own discovery was completely breaking a whole Hydrocity act with Tails without cheating) my first week of Sonic 3 wasn't like that. You're free to not believe it. Why do you think this was a bug?
To the first, I think he more meant that everyone's personal experience is different. On my first Mania run, I only ran into 2 glitches: OOZ2's boss pulling me into the pit (which I think is fixed in the patch), and the jump sound being replaced by the ring sound after a while (fixed upon system reset, and haven't seen it since). I doubt either of you will concede the point, so it's probably best to agree to disagree. To the second, the fact that the spiked balls in the Knuckles-only section of ICZ1 could also hurt Super Sonic, and that both of these were changed in S3&K, seems pretty clear that it was a glitch.
That ring one sounds funny heh. Honestly I saw the change to Big Arms and immediately assumed it was purely because he was no longer an end boss. The Super Sonic epicness needed to be shifted. I still feel pretty safe in that assumption unless someone knows some further hidden info. Unreachable objects in Sonic 3 alone are a different story (because unreachable), but letting a final boss accidentally do something that in-your-face, and that epic,... I'd have a hard time believing that was not very much intended. It's a bit of a side-topic but I'm interested to hear what the general consensus is on that.
It's worth noting that the spiked balls weren't actually fixed - they have exactly the same problem as the spike bug (basically the same code too) in that if you touch them while invulnerable you'll still take damage and/or die. Big Arms being able to hurt Super Sonic is once again exactly the same problem (basically the same code too), and if you modify the game to give you permanent invulnerability you'll see that the boss can still hurt you in S3K. It's a bug.
On the subject of music bugs, I inadvertently performed some kind of unholy ritual that caused me to get the speed shoes music for the remainder of the level, even though I didn't pick any: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S0NvpQB_0Q Also, I'm pretty sure this isn't supposed to happen: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkd0cAG17sc[/youtube] Both things were recorded before the patch, by the way.
Did you read the part where I said "Unclear" and not "nonexistent"? Did you read the post....at all, actually? I said I only remembered a bit with clarity, and that we all probably only remember a BIT with any sort of clarity. The point was that your argument about comparing stuff 6 weeks after launch is a terrible example because nobody is going to remember absolutely everything about a 15+ year old game launch that they played when they were kids (even I can't, which I pretty explicitly stated.) There could've been more, hell there could've been LESS! We don't know. If you're going to disassemble my point it would help to read it in its entirity and not nitpick. If we're at the point where you're just gonna try and make what I say sound disingenuous, then I guess I'll just agree to disagree and stop here cause we're going nowhere with this =P. On the note of Big Arms hurting Super Sonic, I actually thought it was a really cool feature and I'm kinda sad Sonic 3 Complete doesn't have it. I like the idea of a boss that you can't just breeze through with the Super form, gives the fight a lot more tension and makes it more meaningful IMO.
